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buddhistsoldier

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buddhistsoldier
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PostedDec 04, 2009 6:37 am
i guess im the weird one then
54 NM Hunter
i went against all advice and did a hybrid of sorts, and to be honest, my damage just aint there, i duo with HM Hunters daily and just look in awe at the hits they dish out, my crits are only about 30% of the time, and they are around 1k, normal hits around 800-900, go str/dex all the way, and take our advice, dont try to go end game with a NM Hunter, it cannot be done unless you intend on spending ALOT of RL money on your gear, and ALOT of in game gold on your gear



by the way, it took me from march of this year to get here, and that was with help from high lvl guildies and friends

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misterdude

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PostedDec 04, 2009 11:07 am
Don't worry I was weird way before you. I don't think that people understood a heavy LUC battle defender in the days of "Tank, tank, tank" and battle def was barely a term ever used. I don't think people understood a 51 NM mage duoing exclusively with a 51 NM archer as the kiting tank and doing it all the way to 58, in the days when there was not even one 60 NM and going past 50 was "stupid and useless". Being weird is cool. =)

That was directed to ******** but the rest is just general comments. But be warned if you don't like my writing style look away, for ***'s sake look away now! =)

In general, one really does have to consider their intentions for taking any class to high level regardless of mode though. But when the choice is NM and archer and high level, you become a rarer breed because based on most peoples' practical in game goals and intentions, such a character is not very effective, not very wanted, and even by the one playing it is considered generally disappointing. Every class is considered less than wanted to be NM at high level but archers are one of the two that is REALLY advised against by the average player. The reason is simple. And it's the reason that an NM fighter won't be as self critical as an archer/hunter and an NM defender won't feel as weak or an NM priest cry that they cannot do their job or an NM mage consider themselves to be useless. The fact that someone else may consider you to be stupid or wrong for your game choice is irrelevant to me. I couldn't care less what people thought about the usefulness of my 58 NM or LUC defender. But the issue is when you yourself feel you suck, because shame/self disapproval is near the bottom end of the emotional scale. Yes this is a game, not real life, but still. The point of a game is fun (an emotion, if you will) and therefore how you feel as you play and how you feel about what you choose as you play is important. Being an NM archer is fine but being a disappointed NM archer now goes against the very reason to play the game. So why can a NM defender tank Cloron/Fanta dragon, an NM priest keep him standing, an NM mage nuke the crap out of DD2 mobs, but an archer supposedly can't do anything at high level NM. The answer is this:

We are a LUC based class. For better or worse, shooting attacks - the core of our class - is an area based on the LUC stat. But LUC in small quantities is not how the stat is designed to work well. LUC, once you have enough to have constant critical hit builds, then becomes what the class is about. But that means 500 LUC minimum. In NM there is only one way to get 500 LUC, and that is to be high level and have good gear. But it's not just LUC, because every physical damage class needs accuracy, and that means DEX. This is not such a problem for most of the levels, but the lvl 50+ maps require about 200 DEX to be accurate. So now you need 700 stat points just to start getting to the point where you begin unlocking the true power of the class. Anything less than this is just a shadow of the class, whether you choose STR/DEX build or Pure LUC or Hybrid (I like to call it a "Lowbrid" lol. since it has low levels of stat points or is done by low levels in general.)

Because LUC only starts to get truly effective in high quantity, this means, per level builds, builds with low amounts of stat points, cannot utilize it properly, which means cannot utilize the core design or our class properly. A defender going 5 rec per level stays comparatively strong throughout the coarse of the game. 20 REC is nothing, but to a level 3 defender against similar level mobs, this IS enough to be unkillable. STR works in a similar fashion. LUC, however, does not. Going 5 LUC per level means you basically stay weak until LUC acctually accumulates in the way it is designed to work effectively. All the other stats work in low quantities. They work relative to the targets you will face at each according level. LUC simply doesn't, it demands 400 to 500 before it gets any good.

So the issue then becomes I'm playing a class in which I need a lot of stat points in order to actually reach the point where I can build it in an effective way, the way the class was designed to be built. This is why people say over-generalization statements such as "NM archers don't work" Or "Skip archer in NM". It's not that you can't achieve the required amount of stat points to make the class properly, it's just that it is very difficult and requires expensive high stat gear do so. And for the average player, NM and rich are not things that are typically seen together. Still, being able to reach the 700 stat mark doesn't mean you go from weak to uber. It just means now you've reached the base where you are tapping the class potential. You need far more stat points to be a great killer in the endgame, as does any class. The problem is for archers, the minimum level of points needed to make a "proper" build is hundreds higher than the other classes. You can start building a proper tank defender/guard at level 1. For archer, you have to reset stats because you can't even start your proper build until you've got at least 450 stats to work with.

So while STR/DEX is the best in many cases, that is not a true archer build. The poor benefit we get from STR tells us that, it's baked right into the game mechanics. Archer/Hunters are meant to be LUC based, not STR based. A STR/DEX archer is at best a temporary build for this class and when you find yourself in the position where you can never move beyond it, that is when you face the fact that you are essentially playing a class in a way that is not really experiencing what the class is meant to be. That's when it becomes disappointing. But the good news is that if performance is your only goal then you should never find yourself in this situation because someone taking an NM archer to high level clearly has other intentions in mind. Or if not, they at some point receive that proverbial slap in the face and understand the truth of their situation.

In the end though this is a game, and the only intention we all have (though most have forgotten) is to be entertained and have fun. Still, there are few who play NM to high level just for kicks, like I did when I duoed a mage with an archer being the tank all the way to level 58. At a time when NOBODY had a 60 NM and certainly not anyone really over mid 50s as an archer/hunter. But while that archer was the most "fun" oriented player i've ever known to play an MMO, we still had the odd intention to hit 60 and that was our goal and our drive. In the end, grinding the high level is not inherently fun so there must be motivation to keep you going. We weren't trying to then get red star or farm elemental lapis, we just wanted 60 because "nobody levels an NM to 60", not in those days. We were weird and proud of it.

Believe it or not I was at one time an odd noob that did things nobody understood or agreed with. High level NMs, LUC based defenders, Multiple high level toons, actually helping and being nice instead of caring only about EXP. Things that are common now, but not so much back in the day. And I thought little of performance or statistics. I'm still that at heart but when my said archer friend left the game I lost the "yin to my yang" as they say and became far more performance oriented as the next phase of my Shaiya path consisted of about 3 months of solo and guildless grinding through HM and UM. My archer friend, she cared nothing of such things as was pretty much all about fun and kindness. And you have to be that odd kind of person to take an NM archer to high level. And that's a refreshing, and lacking in this game, kind of "odd" in my opinion.

In the end, it's all about what you want to do. It's about having as much fun and entertainment as possible but you have to have a direction or you're just sitting around chatting in the towns, which is fine, but you don't need to be a level 60 to do that.

There becomes only one practical reason to play NM archer to the end. Fun of course, but what I mean is more like Time. If you can't play the game in a dedicated fashion with a high level of core hardness, like any MMO, you won't succeed in the sense of defining success as in game practical completion of objectives, such as PvP rank, boss kills, high levels, great gear etc. So if you were short on time but heavy on cash you could get the relative fullness of the game by gearing up a maxed out NM, and you could rightfully choose archer if that is the class you fancy most, and therefore experience most of the full game in a shorter period of time than the average, NM to HM to UM to 60 uber geared setup that most hardcore gamers utilize when playing MMOs.

But if you're looking for the perfect storm: Not spending excessive time, Not spending excessive money, Being statistically powerful, Being a complex class, and Being high level. Such a thing simply does not exist in the MMO world, and certainly not in a post EP4 economically destroyed Shaiya run by Aeria Games business strategy. You can't simply buy a lvl 60 UM archer in this, the US servers, of this game. Practical in game success comes in two ways. Spending way too much time then we really should on a single game or spending way too much money then we really should on a single game.

The most balanced way to go about it is to take a lot of time, several years of casual play working your way up and acquiring things. Though staying interested for such a long time can be difficult. But in the end, you don't achieve the extreme levels of success without taking more extreme costs to get them. And in my opinion, this then takes the game out of the fun and entertainment category and puts it into the "I care a little too much about this tiny aspect of my life" category. We all care about our performance, that's the only way we keep coming back for thousands of hours of gameplay. The average game is only a dozen hours and even a long single player RPG taps out at 100 with all the side bonuses. No sane person plays a single game for 2000 hours in two years. We are certainly not sane gamers. But in the end, balance is needed, and therefore NM becomes a viable choice. Because in the end, you're using this game as a temporary source of entertainment in your life and whether you spend 200 hours trying to get to high level UM and giving up before you get there, or spend 600 hours taking UM to 60 and getting bored after you do so, or spending 50 hours taking NM to 58 and getting bored, it ends the same way. You move on with your life and find another game or avenue of entertainment.

A level 60 NM archer may be kinda useless, but don't forget the obvious truth. This is a GAME, not your LIFE. And in the scope of things EVERY character, class, and level is useless. A lvl 60 UM fighter/warrior with full 6s and [20] enchanted weapons is uselss. For you fellow old dogs, AranTelen may be useless (high level NM archer back in the day), but Genesis is useless too, and LaBoa is useless, AimeeLee is useless, Aes is uselss, Tomal will be useless. Because Aes (my archer toon) doesn't send me a monthly rent check, doesn't follow me down city streets at night with bow nocked in my defense. And your toon, regardless of what it turns out to be won't do anything useful for you in the end either. It's just entertainment, that's the use of this game and the only use of your class, mode, and level. So it's all about playing as best you can, and by best I mean whatever is most interesting an most fun to you. That's why you play games in the first place.

Off topic at the end a bit there but anyway I stick around because I love to write and I love to create things and after putting in so much game time I've got myself quite a base of knowledge and a neat little project in the guide to provide me entertainment. This became more fun that then actual game for me and so I stopped playing and spend my time writing posts that 1% of the population may actually read. But it's my fun and that's all that matters. I left the game for reasons more numerous and complex than just that but anyway, grats if you read this all you are in the elite of gamers with attention span.

buddhistsoldier

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buddhistsoldier
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PostedDec 04, 2009 11:32 am
(for the record i read the entire post, as i have with ALL your posts Aes) and i agree my friend, i only grind in desert and jungle because i want to be the FIRST lvl 60 NM Hunter on Etain, im 6 lvls shy of it, and i want it so bad i can taste it, i love reading all you type, you put so much thought into it, and one day i challenge myself to know as much as you do, nobody on this game knows as much as you do about game mechanics and the classes, as you do

if the person who posted this is playing Fury on Etain i would be glad to help him/her? grind and get to end game, its fun in the end, and like Aes said, that is the exact reason we play games like this, for "fun"

i'm currently saving up for a restat and reskill(i know i know "useless" for a NM)
so i can get my 450 luc and re-lapis with dex and str duals

i read your guide around lvl 25 Aes, and i noticed i had already gone "hybrid" when i knew nothing about game mechanics, if i did at that time i may have went the normal and boring str/dex build, its about time to get my crits up though, i need more crits lol

in the end i would advise (if you choose to stick with a NM hunter/archer) that you add a point or 2 of rec every other lvl, or every 2-3 lvls so you have that extra hp to survive in end game maps
(my rec in my build made it impossible for anybody to 1 hit kill me in 20-30)

maybe in the end Aes, i was unknowingly copying you lol


***Edit***

its almost impossible to lvl after about 50 without help, takes days of nonstop grinding to get there, and the deaths from not paying attention kill all of your xp when bless is low

but like i said, if you play Etain, i will gladly duo with you, i need a Duo partner anyway

misterdude

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PostedDec 06, 2009 2:24 am
This is going to be the hardest post I've ever written, because I am forcing myself to say as little as possible when there's a million things swirling in my head. But it's late and I have to force myself to sleep so I can get up early tomorrow.

I had an idea, a potential way for a low budget NM archer/hunter to better solo in the endgame. Because those who have done it know that the standard attack builds don't work when you have the average stat point totals of an NM that isn't rolling in gold. Combine this with the massive defensive abilities of the endgame mobs you need to grind on, and you're literally left with a character that cannot kill anything. Seriously. The game is essentially programmed to force an NM, especially a physical attack based NM, especially a high stat oriented class like archer/hunter NM, to fail. And without help from others, that's exactly what we do.

So, I've tested my new build plan and it has potential. But it needs a lot of analyzing to figure out how effective it would be versus your other options. And since I ran these test with my 58 UM, with stats in such a way to emulate a lvl 51 NM, I have to evaluate if a true lower level NM could actually perform in a similar way or not. It has potential. But now the hard part... That's all I will say for now. lol.

buddhistsoldier

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PostedDec 06, 2009 3:46 am
**** you aes, confusin me, Hard man, tell me if it works, you got me on yahoo

if it does i will refrain from getting my luc up with this stat reset im getting tomorrow

misterdude

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PostedDec 06, 2009 9:58 am
Of course, I'll let you know. I may need a day or two to fully analyze and type everything up. I just haven't analyzed enough yet to know anything more than 1) it appears to work, it DID work for me, but I am not a low 50s NM, even if I try my best to statistically emulate it. and 2) It therefore has potential to be a very cost effective use of stat points that may allow NM to solo mobs with reasonable speed, that they could not even significantly hurt with other builds.

kmhasan

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PostedDec 06, 2009 10:04 pm
This is off-topic considering the OP. But I'll fill in with my thoughts about the current discussion going on.



I did manage to reach 60 NM archer, pretty much on my own, grinding mostly in jungle for the last bit. It was back in Ep3 and my NM archer was blessed by some AP funding from me. So he had decent gear (duals and a few 5s linked) for an NM (soul finger bow, 5 slot helm, sonic, 52 cape, best accessories, etc). I still have that toon, maybe not for usefulness, but more of an emotional attachment.

I can't recall the exact stats I had. But I'd think I had close to 500 luc and 150 dex with some small amount of str. The dex figure caused me a lot of trouble, but I didn't have much to fix in there. I remember I did a huge chunk of my 59-60 in one day grinding at mistburn helltooth in jungle. But I had sharpshooter, clean hit and weapon mastery running on that day. Grinding unnossed was possible too -- I just hated the misses. My options were pretty limited, though. The only ele weapon I had before hitting 60 was my water epic (now we can get buffs, other epics -- it wasn't like that back in those days). Later on I got earth on my soul, but that was after my grinding days were over.

I am pretty certain that luc based build would be superior for an NM if you want to reach 60. Of course, you can't manage that without at least dual lapised gear. When you want to compare yourself against HM/UM hunters, you'll probably feel that it was all wasted, but it isn't the point really.

I think I was fortunate because when I did it, it was still early in the game. Not many HM/UM archers were above my level. The level itself makes a huge difference. With my NM archer I did manage to PvP in 1-60. Killing UMs with NM toon was fun -- even 1v1, the level difference and the company I hung out with made it quite possible. I also managed to outdamage UM players to win CD boxes. I could farm 5s from Stigma. But in PvE I think the most fun was to tank and kill Elemental Cave bosses.

People will always give you hard time questioning why you are leveling a NM toon past 40 (or 50 in those days). But Aes is right, it is a game after all. You'll have your friends to grow up with. There will be many who just won't care about your mode and treat you like everyone else. I had my share of fun grinding with Aes and Aran, camping raigo with Genesis and fighting (well pretty much tickling) Raveness.

buddhistsoldier

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PostedDec 07, 2009 2:43 am
exactly, we dont have a 60 NM Hunter on Etain, my goal is to be the first, and i grind with my HM friends all the time in DD2, usually i just hang with the healer and draw the errant mob away from the healer, and back to the tank

i have been lucky enough to be friends with some AP buyers, and i have enchanted gear, which helps a bit

misterdude

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PostedDec 07, 2009 10:55 am
Even with budget gear, a 50+ NM archer/hunter will be able to pull off a LUC/DEX build that is better than a comparable STR/DEX build in DPS, regardless if the mob has high or low DEF. You need a budget or ability to get lvl 3 and 4 luc and dex lapis though, but you won't need anything the likes of what Tomal had.

STR/DEX and "Lowbrid" builds simply don't perform the best out of your options at higher level, even with lower levels of stat points. In this territory LUC/DEX takes the top spot for single target DPS.

The idea I'm working on is totally different though. It's not a conventional single target DPS archer/hunter build. The way to compare it against a standard build can only be EXP gained per time frame. Whether or not I'll be able to do so I don't know but it has potential thus far.

But of course builds are situational and so this build will suit a specific situation and others suit different situations.

buddhistsoldier

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PostedDec 07, 2009 10:58 am
sounds good so far man, ill have to restat to that once you tell me your secrets *shakes fist*

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