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KurysFlame

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KurysFlame
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PostedFeb 13, 2014 11:25 pm

Main Katar in PvP

Please tell me why Brawler is thought of as only good for pve.
Many people have said katar is a pve class, but besides one person I have failed to get any adequate replies as to why this is. I've heard quite a few mention that the class is unpopular in TW, but have yet to be actually told why. Could anyone with more insight please let me know?

Soon after I first saw katar, there were a few things that just told me this was a fairly tanky dps class, quite capable of dishing it out and taking a hit if needed. I'll list a few of the reasons why so those against katar in pvp have something to counter.

  • Constant 20% damage reduction: Katar's skill, Inner Strength, provides 20% damage reduction for 20 seconds to Katar mains with a mere 6 second CD. It includes a heal and a charge using buff to evade and crit for 10 seconds which is an added extra. Sure, guardian has access to phalanx for 30% and static (believe that's the term) damage reduction, and I have to agree that is certainly better defensively, but it forces them to cap speed and they lack in some other areas. I'm also not a fan of the playstyle, but that's a personal problem.

  • Bucket loads of health: After the weapon bonus and envoy path, most katar mains will have at least 24-29% health.

  • Bucket loads of Crit: Without using the one Weak Point Analysis 1, Katar has 19.6 Crit from envoy. I have 55% crit at lvl 43, admittedly with craftable gear and some stat points invested in crit (which I plan to reinvest later most likely), but I still have 6.4 Crit to grab from my envoy path.

  • Second best gap closer in game: Blitz falls short of wizard's instant thunder due to lack of an aoe and .5 seconds less stun time. However, it has less cool down and less animation (I believe).

  • Passive debuff cleanse: For this alone I would consider an evade build on a katar main. Even if the opponent has high accuracy, they'll likely miss every now and then. Due to this and high health, katar has very little to worry about from DoTs.

  • Unreleased sea and fire runes: Yes, we do not have these at the moment, but once we do they will add fairly consistent extra DMG, accuracy, evade, and 5% more damage reduction.


I'm not being sarcastic or negative in some other way here. Please let me know what things I have overlooked that make main katar not viable in pvp.

"Radical Edward's profile is a seven foot tall ex-basketball pro Hindu guru drag-queen alien." ―Jet Black
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brochadorgaming

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 12:14 am
im lvling it... luv the animations but it misses alot i mean alot! XD lvl 41 and not getting sub class still thinking about it.... if only those animation have iframes hahaha

KurysFlame

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 12:19 am
I think the problem has something to do with being too far from the enemy actually. Also, it looks like more than it is since a miss means the entire animation shows misses. Had the same problem problem on a duelist, but believe simply moving a bit closer after blitzing will solve the issue.

Still waiting for someone to tell me what's so bad about pvp with a katar main. I'm not issuing a challenge here. I honestly want to know. >.<

"Radical Edward's profile is a seven foot tall ex-basketball pro Hindu guru drag-queen alien." ―Jet Black

R_e_i

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 12:34 am

Re: Main Katar in PvP

Please tell me why Brawler is thought of as only good for pve.
KurysFlame wrote:
Many people have said katar is a pve class, but besides one person I have failed to get any adequate replies as to why this is. I've heard quite a few mention that the class is unpopular in TW, but have yet to be actually told why. Could anyone with more insight please let me know?

Soon after I first saw katar, there were a few things that just told me this was a fairly tanky dps class, quite capable of dishing it out and taking a hit if needed. I'll list a few of the reasons why so those against katar in pvp have something to counter.

  • Constant 20% damage reduction: Katar's skill, Inner Strength, provides 20% damage reduction for 20 seconds to Katar mains with a mere 6 second CD. It includes a heal and a charge using buff to evade and crit for 10 seconds which is an added extra. Sure, guardian has access to phalanx for 30% and static (believe that's the term) damage reduction, and I have to agree that is certainly better defensively, but it forces them to cap speed and they lack in some other areas. I'm also not a fan of the playstyle, but that's a personal problem.

  • Bucket loads of health: After the weapon bonus and envoy path, most katar mains will have at least 24-29% health.

  • Bucket loads of Crit: Without using the one Weak Point Analysis 1, Katar has 19.6 Crit from envoy. I have 55% crit at lvl 43, admittedly with craftable gear and some stat points invested in crit (which I plan to reinvest later most likely), but I still have 6.4 Crit to grab from my envoy path.

  • Second best gap closer in game: Blitz falls short of wizard's instant thunder due to lack of an aoe and .5 seconds less stun time. However, it has less cool down and less animation (I believe).

  • Passive debuff cleanse: For this alone I would consider an evade build on a katar main. Even if the opponent has high accuracy, they'll likely miss every now and then. Due to this and high health, katar has very little to worry about from DoTs.

  • Unreleased sea and fire runes: Yes, we do not have these at the moment, but once we do they will add fairly consistent extra DMG, accuracy, evade, and 5% more damage reduction.


I'm not being sarcastic or negative in some other way here. Please let me know what things I have overlooked that make main katar not viable in pvp.  


Disagreed.

1. Katar in PvP usually Build EVA because it syncs SO well with the envoy tree (Now sure if they have this now, but they get it later if they dont: 50% Chance to get rid of a negative status effect when you dodge).
-They do not have this right now, so it makes eva building pointless.
-If they EVA build -20% DMG is alright, but all you have to do is DoT the katar. You cannot dodge DoTs once they are on you, NOR does -DMG effect it. Therefore, the -20% DMG is counter-productive for a PvP built Katar.
-Futuristically, we get ACC PvP weapons (lv 60) within a months time. It's pretty much a dead build and makes you squishy.

2. The case Katar is HP/DEF built for PvP.... it just relies on ultimate skills to kill ppl. It honestly doesn't do enough damage or have proper CC to do anything in combination with its LONG animation hang times. The HP is also irrelevant and just makes you die a bit slower.
-Other classes can use 3+ skills by the time swift finishes.
-You are counter building cleanse, which is REALLY good for PvP, yet both end up as dead builds.

3. Stun dashes ARE NOT the best dashes in the game. There are other dashes, but none are the best. They are useful in their own way. Why?

A stun dash is a LOCKED dash which makes it ALL the more predictable & easy to counter.
This means you can trap/totem/free-form/Stun Dash/, to counter them because you know ppl will start off with them. If you dash into a trap, you're F'N screwed. Trades will come off even (despite 2.5s vs 3s) and if they ulti it, you're gonna get punished.

Not to mention, what does Katar do after they stun? That depends on the sub, and most likely the ult upgraders will ult. If the person survives.. You will get punished.

4. The runes for Katar are mainly PvE Focused -> Stackable non-debuffs. This means you have to do more to stack your crap up, and that doesn't generally happen in Arena or Duels.
Negligible point.


Overall Melee classes are pretty gimped for duels and PvP, especially once ACC is obtained. To beat Katar, you Trade or Counter with their stun, and they have NOTHING left (except ults).

Knockbacks and other soft CCs will easily disrupt their motion and leave them to die, despite their sustain, and many PvP class combinations will shut it down, regardless of sub.


*
It's not that they are a bad class, they just under-perform in duels and Arena because they are sustain fighters, who lack the sustain of a bard, and are not the super tanky-reflecting guardians.

Ults will be their tool to win, or you just out-gear the other player to a significant extent.

They also won't be bad vs every combination of players. They will be alright vs a lot of combinations, but vs renowned PvPers and PvP Class combinations, they will fall short.

(Not to mention future Innates...)

R_e_i

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 12:43 am
If you give matchups, I can go into detail which class would win/lose in every scenario.

KurysFlame

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 1:04 am
Thanks very much for the response. Quite a few weaknesses there to katar. I would like to point out that the envoy path, Martial Artist (50% debuff cleanse on dodge) is currently in the envoy tree. I'd also like to throw in that I'm fairly certain this cleanses DoTs. I had one duelist I dueled comment on it. At least one pro of katar in pvp is it's rather immune to DoTs with health and cleanse.

As for accuracy, I still need to learn the stats on it but from what I'm aware, most amounts of accuracy will miss at least occasionally to cap evade. At the very least, the mere fact people need to build accuracy means they will sacrifice dps elsewhere. Yes, I know this effects pretty much all classes, even those that don't use evade, but it's there nonetheless.

As for stun, I'd actually suggest not starting with it and opening with some form of ranged sub skill first. The animation is fast enough so it's not like the enemy can read your move, so any counter is going to be on their prediction. Either way, I certainly admit the lack of range hurts alot. Main reason I would not mix katar and duelist.

Runes. I'm not entirely certain, but I believe I've heard somewhere katar mains will have an easier time getting runes eventually. As for now, long animation and slow charge gathering certainly are a pain. Hopefully in the future katar skills either gain more damage for skills or faster animation. Or perhaps there are ways to consistently cancel animation.

"Radical Edward's profile is a seven foot tall ex-basketball pro Hindu guru drag-queen alien." ―Jet Black

R_e_i

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 2:08 am
KurysFlame wrote:
Thanks very much for the response. Quite a few weaknesses there to katar. I would like to point out that the envoy path, Martial Artist (50% debuff cleanse on dodge) is currently in the envoy tree. I'd also like to throw in that I'm fairly certain this cleanses DoTs. I had one duelist I dueled comment on it. At least one pro of katar in pvp is it's rather immune to DoTs with health and cleanse.

As for accuracy, I still need to learn the stats on it but from what I'm aware, most amounts of accuracy will miss at least occasionally to cap evade. At the very least, the mere fact people need to build accuracy means they will sacrifice dps elsewhere. Yes, I know this effects pretty much all classes, even those that don't use evade, but it's there nonetheless.

As for stun, I'd actually suggest not starting with it and opening with some form of ranged sub skill first. The animation is fast enough so it's not like the enemy can read your move, so any counter is going to be on their prediction. Either way, I certainly admit the lack of range hurts alot. Main reason I would not mix katar and duelist.

Runes. I'm not entirely certain, but I believe I've heard somewhere katar mains will have an easier time getting runes eventually. As for now, long animation and slow charge gathering certainly are a pain. Hopefully in the future katar skills either gain more damage for skills or faster animation. Or perhaps there are ways to consistently cancel animation.  


Alright. And It does cleanse DoTs but that is not what I said. I said DoTs do not miss once they are on you, so they can tick out by infinitely using DoTs on Katar with ACC.

ACC can EASILY counter EVA. 30~50% can beat 95% EVA builds. (given the proper gear and level diff of players). At least, I had 50% in CB, and I literally missed 1/25 hits = 96% hit rate vs all EVA ppl.

<Played a Lv 6x Katar in HK>
The skills don't get faster and you can't cancel animation durations, just the locked positioning. For some, the next animation is faster-activated because some animations such as stun & traps exceed the GCD, therefore you can use skills once that GCD is up w/o still being in animation.. but not any other skills. Only Blitz.

Their damage over time is good, but staying on someone in PvP without them countering you is NOT a cake-walk.

It's not horrific, it just has a lot of vulnerabilities & gets gimped as a melee vs some of the main classes that I would not like to lose to (Bard/Sorc/Gun/Duelist) and all the Wiz cuz they r f'n gun sub ;-;

They Lack soft CC. That is a vulnerability, and by getting that soft CC... you risk losing your combo skills. That is why I justified saying they will win/lose through ultimate skills in PvP. Those do the most damage, those nuke the hardest, and provide invulnerability during them. You WILL win with ultimates on hand, that is a given. (Except to maybe a Guard/Gun or Wiz/Gun) =P

Copestetic

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 7:02 am
Honestly, from all the QQ'ing I see about the Katar's being bad, are coming from people who suck with melee classes in PvP. It's not surprising at all. Just take a stroll in the Arenas. Watch how current "pro" Duelists, and lol, Guardians, stick with one target until they're facerolled. None know how to disengage at all, and will chase those kites as long as they're alive, despite the fact that their Bard is getting hit by a GS, just a gap closer away.

OP, I'd test everything yourself and take the information that's already been provided with a grain of salt. I'm tempted to, based on the feedback of Ayadreamy here in Lumina. She's main'ing one now, and has had nothing but good things to say about them. Especially that 225% Lotus Strike. So sexy.

IGN: iProtect 29 ME and Snares 29 PU.

pboi16

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 8:06 pm
ive dueled a lvl 50+ katar/gs and he hurt like Hard i think his IGN is Crazy something i cant land a good hit even if i have high accu. im using two fell btw and has a 40 percent accuracy.

ayadreamy

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PostedFeb 14, 2014 11:02 pm
Like what Copestetic said, "take the information that's already been provided with a grain of salt". Just because another person said this and that doesn't mean it's actually true.

PVP is still all about bursts, burst or be bursted down. Going Def or HP won't help you survive nukes, only Eva trust me. Using Katar w/o Eva at all means once you got CC'ed you're screwed but with Eva, you might still have a chance through RNG and your Envoy that gives 50% chance to remove debuff each evade you do which in my case, I really find it helpful.

In a 5v5 PVP, you won't really say that "OMG EVERYONE HAS ACC BUILD, IM SCREWED" of course not. There's much more PVE players than PVP players, statistically.

There is also Swift Strike which can be have an ultimate passive that grants it -10% Acc, -15% Acc when upgraded and thing is, if you have a decent setup, you can just go Blitz > Swift Strike > Lotus Strike on DPS classes and see them dead in a few secs. Though there's still a choice to have Gunslinger as sub which gives you sure kill combo if executed well. Frost Trap ensures 100% crits on it's debuff duration meaning your Lotus Strike would definitely destroy your enemy.

I'm actually trying to get to the Top Ranking of Katar (even though I'm a PVE Katar) so I've seen the potential of Katars in PVP, all I can say is they can definitely BURST down any DPS class in a few secs with very good setup w/o compromising your Eva at all.

Here's some few good matches I had w/o a Bard,

I'm a Katar/Guard with an off-tank build

Dreamy, you may just be lucky that others didn't build Acc so you facerolled them.
Not really. It's so easy to get Fell Cores right now may it be Lv40 or Lv50. I actually fought ALOT of Acc built classes on the 40-59 bracket and I can still say that Eva is still the best choice when going for PVP cause HP or Def won't save you at all, again, "burst or be bursted down".

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