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PurpleMousie

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PurpleMousie
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PostedApr 16, 2013 4:35 pm
OSUBeaver wrote:
The crux of the issue is the assumption that the size of a slice of the digital wheel represents accurately the area-based percentage of winning. Knowing this to be fallacy, the next logical request/complaint would be to inquire what the actual winning percentages are.  
There is no link between the size of the tile on the wheel and the chances of striking it. None what so ever.
That link is made by your mind and used by gambling systems and marketing to incourage you to gamble.

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teamvortex

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PostedApr 16, 2013 5:06 pm
PurpleMousie wrote:
OSUBeaver wrote:
The crux of the issue is the assumption that the size of a slice of the digital wheel represents accurately the area-based percentage of winning. Knowing this to be fallacy, the next logical request/complaint would be to inquire what the actual winning percentages are.  
There is no link between the size of the tile on the wheel and the chances of striking it. None what so ever.
That link is made by your mind and used by gambling systems and marketing to incourage you to gamble.  


Thats called a rigged game my friend, you need to go look up the definition of a rigged game.

Again why have it as a wheel if the chanced are not what is dictated on the wheel.

By your logic if you are playing lottery and it says to pick 6 numbers from 1 to 52 and a 53 comes up during the drawling thats ok cause it was YOUR "mind" that assumed there would be no number 53.

Also just for the record I gave it another try, (I do after all use the relics for enchanting my self not for sale and as long as I get the amount I would have just by buy straight up its still worth it) I bought 10 spins and got a total of 13 Relics of which ALL my spins were once again 1 or 2 relics only.

THIS is not gambling and if you think so you have NO idea what real gambling is. Gambling is ALL about playing the odds and if the odds are not listed and the wheel which WOULD represent the odds is false then you are no longer gambling (or playing the odds) you are playing a rigged system design to make you THINK you have a higher chance of winning then you really do and there is NOTHING gambling about that.

"Cheating in casinos refers to actions by the house or the player which are prohibited by regional gambling control authorities. This may involve using suspect apparatus, interfering with apparatus, chip fraud or misrepresenting games."

If a roulette wheel has ANYTHING that changes the chances of winning due to any interference of the chance given by the amount of numbers on a wheel that is known as a "Rigged Roulette Wheel" which by the way is HIGHLY illegal for any gambling organization to use and seeing as this IS in fact a gamble with the odds being different then what is listed it IS rigged.

I mean you can say you dont care, you can say I am crazy for caring my self. You can tell me I am Brilliant, an asshat or any other number of things but one thing that WILL not change no matter how hard you try is the fact that the Narak loot wheel IS in fact miss leading, not an accurate representation of a spin to win wheel, does NOT follow ALL other rules set forth by what a loot wheel is and how it operates and is in fact rigged.

I mean thats the bottom line, you can not care which is fine or even say that its not big deal to you and that you and both I should expect this.

BUT it does not change the fact that the wheel IS rigged and that its an attempt to make you THINK your odds are higher when in fact they are not.

The amount of people that roll over and allow corporate to get away with miss leading the public just astonishes me so to all those people that just think this is standard practice YOU my friend are the problem. Get a backbone and stand up for injustice and maybe you will see that a company might take the time to care less about how they can **** and pillage their customers wallets more efficiently and spend a bit more time addressing customers wants and needs.

Corporation no longer works for you, you work for corporation and if you do not see that in this painfully obvious attempt at miss leading its customers for an extra buck I feel sorry for your children's future having a parent that does not fight for a future where corporation does not rule our lives. Might as well sit them down and tell them not to try cause there is not point... right?

Rekikyo

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Rekikyo
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PostedApr 16, 2013 5:30 pm
You are correct that this is not gambling:

Rekikyo wrote:
Also, calling them gambles is inaccurate from a legal standpoint. Gambling requires Remuneration (A monetary payment for services), Consideration (A contract agreeing to a specific reward), and Compensation (some sort of reward for playing), and Chance (a lack of skill required to play, based on simple odds).

Aeria and many other game providers, avoid Remuneration. You do not get anything of tangible value back for your money. It is a digital item you recieve, which has no tangible value. Some of their so-called gambles also avoid Consideration. For example, the in game gatcha boxes; you never agreed to purchase them, so you never agreed to take on the liability for what the box contains.

Your article speaks more to the addictive nature of boxes, than anything else.

For the record: Laws about gambling are also interstate and international. Other state's laws do dictate what gambling is. However, no state has a Remuneration definition that includes digital items. In fact, gambling legislation is getting looser as time goes by, because many states who have outlawed it, are now looking at it as a credible source of taxation.  


However, it's not possible to called it a rigged game either, because weighting the prizes can't be considered rigging, particularly if the game lists 'quality of prizes' within its prize description.

If you look at the Loot wheel's prize list, it creates an individual prize consideration for Jackpot. Then within the prizes listed on the wheel, it dictates some as "Grand Prizes," and then dictates the rest as "other prizes." That description educates you that the odds off getting such are weighted. It doesn't tell you the particular weight, but since the game avoids Remuneration, not disclosing the odds is perfectly legal.

We're not letting them get away with anything. We're just also too smart to assume the roll of a chance game player.

That being said, you also need to separate and distiguish which Narak Relics are NT, and which ones are not.

Tradeable Narak Relics have an AP value of 199 AP, so if you win a tradeable version, you're actually getting higher than the face value of your bet. If you are getting only NT Naraks in small quantities, then you could argue your satisfaction expectations are not met.

I'm not here to say that the loot wheels aren't risky. I'm merely here to say:
1) legally this is not gambling
2) your initial math said nothing to indicate you understand anything about probability.
3) prizes are weighted, and fully disclosed that they are weighted; They just don't indicate by how much.

teamvortex

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Posts
21
PostedApr 16, 2013 6:24 pm
Rekikyo wrote:

I'm not here to say that the loot wheels aren't risky. I'm merely here to say:
1) legally this is not gambling
2) your initial math said nothing to indicate you understand anything about probability.
3) prizes are weighted, and fully disclosed that they are weighted; They just don't indicate by how much.  


Rather then tell me my math is not based of probability why don't you point out to me how. Cause according to my understanding my math based off the wheel which is presented and using my understand of the laws of science on how wheels spin around says that it is 100% right.

Probability is the chance of an outcome based on the information present to you. If the information is misconstrued or hidden then that changes the probability based off what they chose RATHER then what is presented in front of you. Thus my math for the probability is NOT the problem the problem is the probability has been altered and hidden so that a player does not know the REAL chance of winning and that goes back to my definition of a rigged game.

Once again I am saying the wheel is rigged and you are saying no the wheel is rigged but thats the way they intended it... lol you dont say. You mean they are TRYING to decive the player? We got a Sherlock Homes over here lol, I am glad you are here for us Rekikyo I do not know how we would be able to make sense of the fact that the company is INTENDING to screw us over if you were not here to tell us all.

On a side note if the wheel was not intended to mislead then the tiles would have accurate representations on them to better shows the odds of winning. I think we can all agree this is nothing more then a way to deceive the public into thinking their odds of winning are higher then they really are.

AND THAT my friend... if what BY DEFINITION is known as a rigged game.

I am starting to think Rekikyo is the WORST kind of forum user, the kind that just sucks up and defends a company cause their main goal is to try and get the power of forum mod by showing they represent the company in a good light. Cause most of everything you have said thus far lacks any REAL facts beyond what you ASSUME is the probability of winning which are made up numbers to try and help prove an argument you have not right engaging in due to your poor attempt at defense of this topic.

Everything I have presented works in both the understandings of mathematics and that of ill representation of a chance of winning due to probability. The only thing that is incorrect here is your idea of HOW it works cause oh hey guess what... you have NO idea, you are 100% assuming what the numbers are and that makes you 100% less accurate then the person which sees and understands what he sees before him.

You can help the company with lies and support a false sense of honesty if you like but I will be **** if you attempt to make up numbers to persuade me into thinking this is justified or acceptable.

You and people like you that hide or use disinformation as an attempt to keep those individuals squelched who have justified complaints about a gaming company they have paid money to are the cancer in the gaming words today.

Or to put this into terms you would better understand... stop being such a blind fanboy and hold a company responsibility for their actions.

When you accept trash you just get more trash.

Rekikyo

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Rekikyo
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PostedApr 16, 2013 6:51 pm
What you are working with 10 trials is not a normal distribution of single attempt probabilities. You are working a Binomial Distribution, under the assumption that attempts are continuous, but not accumulative.

Odds are merely a probability assigned to a single attempt.

To put it simply; Take a coin toss, which is 50/50.
In a single attempt, it's a 50% chance.

But say you want to get heads twice in a row.
The probability of that occuring is .5 X .5 = .25 or 25%.

On the other hand, if you were asking the probability of recieving at least one head in two throws, it would add the probabilities of:

-recieving 2 heads + the probability of recieving a only a head in either the first or second toss. (.5*.5)+(.5*.5*2) = 75%.

It becomes a bit complicated when dealing with odds lower than 50%, but excel has a =BINOM.DIST function that if you know how to use it, does the work for you.
All you have to do is plug in Number of Successes expected, Number of Trials, Odds of Success, and TRUE if the results are cumulative, and False if they are mutually exclusive. In the case of solving for a single success among multiple trials, you set =1-BINOM.DIST(etc).

You don't really need information given to you under this principal to find that if you have a 20% odds per trial, and you attempt 20 trials, you still have 5.8% probability that you will not succeed.

I am not saying it's rigged; I'm saying the odds are weighted based on the value of the prize, which almost every game of chance does. The odds of winning 1.6 million on a scratch away lottery ticket is about 1 in 16 million. The odds of winning $5.00 is much more favorable, at around 1 in 16 tickets. I'm saying, that they disclose a difference between "grand Prize," and "jackpot" and "other prizes" as weighting categories. Thus, not rigged, because you know your opportunity of winning a grand prize or a jackpot is smaller.

You do yourself an injustice by thinking my intentions are to protect a company. I am a free player, and subject to the worst side of this business as such; the P2W aspect which pushes free players aside.

I am, however, someone who severely dislikes tin-foil-hat theorists who lack in the burden of proof department, who argue angles based on incomplete information.

If they are to fail, I would rather them fail on perfectly legit terms because of business practices, and not on the assumption a player has that what they are doing is illegal, or reeks of illegality, when it doesn't.

PurpleMousie

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PostedApr 16, 2013 6:56 pm
teamvortex wrote:
By your logic if you are playing lottery and it says to pick 6 numbers from 1 to 52 and a 53 comes up during the drawling thats ok cause it was YOUR "mind" that assumed there would be no number 53.  
Another example showing your limited grasp of probability, gambling and now logic it seems.

teamvortex wrote:
THIS is not gambling and if you think so you have NO idea what real gambling is.  
I obviously have a much better grasp of this than yourself, actually I have been involved in gaming on both sides of the fence for a number of years now, have you?
teamvortex wrote:
Gambling is ALL about playing the odds and if the odds are not listed and the wheel which WOULD represent the odds is false then you are no longer gambling (or playing the odds) you are playing a rigged system design to make you THINK you have a higher chance of winning then you really do and there is NOTHING gambling about that.  
Incorrect. This shows your limited understanding of gambling in a vast amount of aspects.

teamvortex wrote:
If a roulette wheel has ANYTHING that changes the chances of winning due to any interference of the chance given by the amount of numbers on a wheel that is known as a "Rigged Roulette Wheel" which by the way is HIGHLY illegal for any gambling organization to use and seeing as this IS in fact a gamble with the odds being different then what is listed it IS rigged.  
As I as well as others have tried to point out to you. This is not a roulette wheel. The wheel in question has no direct link to the chances of winning or the individual odds of any individual outcome of a spin, much unlike a roulette wheel. Which you are in fact betting directly upon.
Also could you please point me to the "listed odds" you can seem to see that no one else can.
teamvortex wrote:
the Narak loot wheel IS in fact miss leading, not an accurate representation of a spin to win wheel, does NOT follow ALL other rules set forth by what a loot wheel is and how it operates and is in fact rigged.  

#1 correct
#2 correct
#3 incorrect

verdohan

Elite Founder: Scarlet Blade
verdohan
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PostedApr 16, 2013 7:49 pm
teamvortex wrote:

the Narak loot wheel IS in fact miss leading, not an accurate representation of a spin to win wheel, does NOT follow ALL other rules set forth by what a loot wheel is and how it operates and is in fact rigged.  



Of course it is, what are you new?? It is gambling, and ALL gambling is rigged in the houses favor.... what a nub

teamvortex

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PostedApr 16, 2013 8:49 pm
That is NOT gambling cause there are no odds of winning what part of that do you not understand that IS the basis of gambling.

PurpleMousie all you are doing is quoting what I say and saying wrong with no reason behind it or saying you some how have more experience then I in matters of whatever it is you are going to disagree with. If you want to be PART of the conversation let me know otherwise you bring nothing to this except your sillyness of an attempt to prove someone else wrong with out any thing to back it.

If I knew it was that easy I am just going to say you are wrong to everything you just posted and that I know cause I have (in your words) "been on both sides of the fence" with whatever issue it is you chose to go up against me with. See anyone can play silly child games I am talking fact and logic which IF my logic is flawed by all means rather then being a child and just saying wrong how about you take an educated stab at it and attempt to point OUT why its wrong.

Rekikyo didnt we talk about this all you are doing AGAIN is throwing out random numbers that have NOTHING to do with the loot wheel in any way lol. Also for the record as stated it was 2 times of 10 spins so that was 20 spins in total. If it was like 1 to 5 spins I MIGHT agree with you but 20 spins and landing on what would be only 20% of the tiles means there is a whole 80% of probability which just never happened 20 times in a row.

By your logic trying to grade my math with the probability of the coin and 50% mark that means if I threw a coin 20 times I could at least ONCE get all heads or all tails which would NEVER happen in history AND here is the real funny thing. The chance (according to the tiles) would be only 20% that I would get ONLY 1 or 2 where as your coin idea is a whole 50% thus the chances of getting ALL coin tosses of ONE side 20 times in a row are HIGHER then me getting only 1s and 2s from 20% of the wheel.

Now again thats IF the wheel was not rigged and worked based of the probability OF the wheel its self.

Again just to sum it up by your logic and explanation it would be EASIER to throw a coin 20 times and it land on heads or tails ALL 20 times then it would be to get 1's and 2's only out of 20 spins which accounts for only 20% of the current board but seeing as thats EXACTLY what happened and you would never be able to throw a coin 20 times and get the same side all 20 in a row it throws out your WHOLE idea of probability effecting the outcome of the spin.

Thus in conclusion the wheel IS rigged.

And Verdohan gambling involves understanding the odds you are playing. If you look at a wheel and it shows the odds by whats on it yet those odds DO NOT add up its not gambling its a rigged game. If you cant play the odds then you are not gambling.

The house always wins refers to the fact that the ODDS are in the FAVOR of the house HOWEVER the difference with EVERY OTHER GAMBLING SYSTEM IN EXISTENCE and the Narak Loot Wheel is the odds are what you see in front of you for gambling which is what makes it gambling. The odds for winning on the Narak loot wheel are misleading and the REAL odds are hidden which of course give the illusion of the odds and that is known as RIGGED.

Look guys I am not saying that you CANT win the 10 packs or that you CANT win jackpot, I am saying the game its self is rigged and the chances of winning them are FAR less then the illusion provided and any REAL gambler would agree thats just bad practice and not honest.

So this comes down to the honesty of the company with their attempts to miss lead people by hiding the true odds of winning and presenting an illusion of higher odds by placing them on a wheel you spin which offers no other idea but you having the chance to win the items on the wheel based off what your chances are that you land on any given tile. But those chances are NOT dictated by luck they are dictated by a hidden system with hidden odds which makes the wheel no more honest then if I was to sit down and cheat in cards with you but you just didnt find out.

House favor odds is a LOT different then not KNOWING your odds.

If someone hands you a gun and says I wont tell you how many bullets is in it, it might be 6 (a full clip) it might be 1 but if you stick it to your head and pull the trigger I will give you a million dollars if you survive. You would say screw that cause for all you know there might be a full 6 with NO chance of winning. Now if you know for a fact the odds are 1 out of 6 cause you KNOW there is only 1 bullet in the gun you might take that bet depending on how badly you want that million dollars... or at least you would consider it more and whats the one thing that is helping you decide that... THE KNOWN ODDS OF WINNING.

Now if the guy hands the gun and says its just 1 bullet and it is in fact 6 is that not now a rigged system with intent ONLY to screw the end user?

teamvortex

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Posts
21
PostedApr 16, 2013 8:56 pm
PurpleMousie wrote:
Incorrect. This shows your limited understanding of gambling in a vast amount of aspects.  


LMAO, I read that and was like WTF is he trying to say... please in all your obvious wisdom can you explain to me the amazing "vast amount of aspects" there are to gambling and how I somehow do not understand them.

Please I would REALLY like you to explain that one to me, though from reading everything you have already said I have the feeling that explanations beyond "your logic is incorrect" and what you were able to find in your online thesaurus to make your self SEEM more intelligent that you most likely will have a very limited explanation for me or even bother to post one.

Shadiah

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PostedApr 16, 2013 9:18 pm
Look, easy answer to this whole "misrepresentation" is simple. The lucky packs say that they can give an item from a list. If you've been here a few weeks, you WILL KNOW that despite there being 10 things on the list (with one being a costume/lingerie), the chance of getting it is most definitely not 1 out of 10. Or even 100. So yeah you should already know this and it's not going to be changed.
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