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Rekikyo

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PostedApr 04, 2013 1:58 am

Question for Naduron and Kitten

Class Balance.
Okay, at the advent of every player reaching the potential of their toon that is easy to reach at 29,

I'm finding particularly that Shadow Walker is becoming weaker and weaker as a class.

I'm finding Sentinels are becoming strong long range classes, with good overall paremeters.

I'm finding Medics have a substantial survival rank, and even adequate tanking ability, in addition to being a good mid range damage dealer.

I'm finding Punishers are squishy, but proficient at very big attacks long range, and also have substantial HP.

I'm finding Whippers have far too much defensive value for their damage output. (Some have over 3000 VOID, and over 300 Defense). They also have 2 lock skills and 2 stun skills very pretty long durations.

I'm finding Defenders to be Broken. Not only do they have an impossible amount of VOID and Defense, they are also already capable of 9000 HP. Not only that, their Taunt skills foil Concealment, and their damage is quite sizeable. Their Skill tree is less diverse as well, meaning they can more fully allocate their skill points where they want them. They also have a Self Heal, and a healing Regen skill. It takes an army to kill one defender in most cases. While I observe it's supposed to be a tank, that doesn't mean it should be more powerful than an army.

Shadow Walker is my biggest concern. Yes, it has high PVE damage output and maneuverability.

But in pvp, Shadow walker hits around 80-800, depending on the skill. They also have the second lowest HP in the game, and are a melee class. EVA at 29 doesn't seem to help much. I have 20 seconds where I have 4500 EVA, and I have 7 seconds where I have 9500 EVA. I've actually had players kill me outright on the 9500 EVA. Furthermore, Stealth is debunkable by Sentinels as a passive, Medics as a skill, and Whippers and Defenders can totally negate it. So where's a SW's defense? It doesn't seem to have one..... yet.

What I want to know is, does EVA's increase in later skill levels, finally start to compensate for SW's lack of HP/Defense/Void? If not, it's going to become a useless melee class.

And will Defenders become more squishy? At this time, they seem to have far too many tricks to stay alive. High Void, High HP, High Defense, High Damage. The only seeming disadvantage is speed. Their self heal heals for more than medic heals heal for ......

So what's high level pvp look like?

Moved to appropriate forum location.
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Wiesior

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PostedApr 04, 2013 2:26 am
I have no idea what you talk about.
Defender and whippers too big def? Are you joke? Thay are frontliners - they are far too squashy.
Complains about SW too weak? They are stealth class.

Sentiel and punisher - they are just OP in BG and mass PvP...

akrstella

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PostedApr 04, 2013 2:28 am
Your question was aimed at others, so I won't really go into discussion here trying to hijack anything. I just wanted to mention that the freedom of a defender isn't as big as you may think.

A SW can kill a defender off guard in one combo if the defender is specced fully into the dps tree. If the defender decides to go a hybrid between damage and tank, they won't really be able to invest into aggro skills for any decent PvE. If the defender builds between all three, it's damage will suffer greatly and will quite frankly hit like a wet noodle.
As SW you can get away from one, come back at a later time and try again.

In a 1v1 battle, the survivability makes defeating one insane because of how long they can last. But mmo's are never really based around 1v1 combat/balance. They try to design it around a group point of view, so each class can bring something to a group. If they made the defender squishier, they wouldn't be able to tank. If they gave it less damage, they would really do no damage. Tanks are usually the ultimate solo classes because of their durability, it goes for a lot of mmorpgs. It takes several people to kill one, but when fighting geared/equal level opponents alone. They can't do much as they are just mana drained and stunned for the duration of the fight. Their damage won't allow to kill anyone in time unless the player it's attacking is weak or if they can get their ult off.

If one player was able to kill a tank alone in a few seconds, they'd have no use on the battlefield as they aren't able to tank.

Now I've always played tank classes in all mmo's. And the balance feels somewhat equal, if not a little higher than most I've played. But I personally would not consider them OP to a point where I would call them broken.

But I'm also curious about the PvP at a higher level cap. I imagine defenders actually becoming OP after level 30 since we get a 40 second +50% damage buff at level 30.
Curious what the two mentioned players have to say about it.

Vix


Edit: On a side note, the damage in mech form IS pretty 'overpowered'. But all mech forms are supposed to be strong. So I'm not sure as to how much this would count to the 'imbalance scale'.

Rekikyo

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PostedApr 04, 2013 3:02 am
akrstella wrote:
Your question was aimed at kitten, so I won't really go into discussion here trying to hijack anything. I just wanted to mention that the freedom of a defender isn't as big as you may think.

A SW can kill a defender off guard in one combo if the defender is specced fully into the dps tree. If the defender decides to go a hybrid between damage and tank, they won't really be able to invest into aggro skills for any decent PvE. If the defender builds between all three, it's damage will suffer greatly and will quite frankly hit like a wet noodle.

In a 1v1 battle, the survivability makes defeating one insane because of how long they can last. But mmo's are never really based around 1v1 combat/balance. They try to design it around a group point of view, so each class can bring something to a group. If they made the defender squishier, they wouldn't be able to tank. If they gave it less damage, they would really do no damage. Tanks are usually the ultimate solo classes because of their durability, it goes for a lot of mmorpgs. It takes several people to kill one, but when fighting geared/equal level opponents alone. They can't do much as they are just mana drained and stunned for the duration of the fight. Their damage won't allow to kill anyone in time unless the player it's attacking is weak or if they can get their ult off.

If one player was able to kill a tank alone in a few seconds, they'd have no use on the battlefield as they aren't able to tank.

Now I've always played tank classes in all mmo's. And the balance feels somewhat equal, if not a little higher than most I've played. But I personally would not consider them OP to a point where I would call them broken.

But I'm also curious about the PvP at a higher level cap. I imagine defenders actually becoming OP after level 30 since we get a 40 second +50% damage buff at level 30.
Curious what the two mentioned players have to say about it.

Vix  


I appreciate your response too. But even as a tank, you're hitting people over 1000 in pvp. So where's that wet noodle hitting? You're a tank build, are you not?

Also, I have a Defender, although it's not a 29 yet.

I don't personally see a use in aggro skills. In the grand scheme of bosses so far, Even a Shadow Walker can tank them. So why does a Defender have to stat tank-esh? To make the medic's job a snooze? Does resetting a boss even exist in this game, unless you kill the other faction entirely? That's the primary reason for Aggro - to maintain control and possession of a boss. Bosses in this game dont seem to be too dangerous (yet) when secondary tanks draw aggro.

But, at 44, you have 15 Skill points from puzzles, probably some 12 from quests, and 47 from levels, for about 74 Skill points.

There are 181 Skill allocation slots. So you can get a 40% skill allocation. If you discount the aggro skills, you can have 45% allocation. You probably don't need the 13 in SP passive, which increases that to a 49% allocation.

I know that doesn't sound like much, but it means you can probably max out every skill that has 5-6 allocation slots, and can also halfway max out those which have the insane 20 or 18 skill point allocations. You also don't technically have to max the HP passive.

And then, there's also the fact that Skill resets are abundant, meaning you don't necessarily have to stick to one job. A SW pretty much does not have an option, but to follow its one job.

If they go stealth fully, Sentinels can still debunk them, as can Medics, and can any aoe, And on top of that, they lose alot of attack skills doing that, most of which have 9-55 second cooldowns. A Defender's Longest Attack Cooldown is 40 seconds, and the next best is 30 seconds. Most are between 3 and 20 seconds.

Also, Mechs are an exception to any skill build rule. As long as you have a high enhancement weapon, your mech is going to be just as strong, and in some cases stronger, than any other built Defender. I do think they made a good decision to make Iron skin decrease attack, but as it levels up, does it increase or decrease the amount of attack it reduces (havent gotten that far with it yet)?

I do feel more balance in this game, but I'm concerned that at high levels, that balance is destroyed.

Kougen

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PostedApr 04, 2013 3:38 am
I wish my Defender were half as broken as you make it sound.

But everyone who knows anything about the Korean version swears that the classes are actually balanced at cap in that version.

akrstella

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PostedApr 04, 2013 3:46 am
Rekikyo wrote:
akrstella wrote:
Your question was aimed at kitten, so I won't really go into discussion here trying to hijack anything. I just wanted to mention that the freedom of a defender isn't as big as you may think.

A SW can kill a defender off guard in one combo if the defender is specced fully into the dps tree. If the defender decides to go a hybrid between damage and tank, they won't really be able to invest into aggro skills for any decent PvE. If the defender builds between all three, it's damage will suffer greatly and will quite frankly hit like a wet noodle.

In a 1v1 battle, the survivability makes defeating one insane because of how long they can last. But mmo's are never really based around 1v1 combat/balance. They try to design it around a group point of view, so each class can bring something to a group. If they made the defender squishier, they wouldn't be able to tank. If they gave it less damage, they would really do no damage. Tanks are usually the ultimate solo classes because of their durability, it goes for a lot of mmorpgs. It takes several people to kill one, but when fighting geared/equal level opponents alone. They can't do much as they are just mana drained and stunned for the duration of the fight. Their damage won't allow to kill anyone in time unless the player it's attacking is weak or if they can get their ult off.

If one player was able to kill a tank alone in a few seconds, they'd have no use on the battlefield as they aren't able to tank.

Now I've always played tank classes in all mmo's. And the balance feels somewhat equal, if not a little higher than most I've played. But I personally would not consider them OP to a point where I would call them broken.

But I'm also curious about the PvP at a higher level cap. I imagine defenders actually becoming OP after level 30 since we get a 40 second +50% damage buff at level 30.
Curious what the two mentioned players have to say about it.

Vix  


I appreciate your response too. But even as a tank, you're hitting people over 1000 in pvp. So where's that wet noodle hitting? You're a tank build, are you not?

Also, I have a Defender, although it's not a 29 yet.

I don't personally see a use in aggro skills. In the grand scheme of bosses so far, Even a Shadow Walker can tank them. So why does a Defender have to stat tank-esh? To make the medic's job a snooze? Does resetting a boss even exist in this game, unless you kill the other faction entirely? That's the primary reason for Aggro - to maintain control and possession of a boss. Bosses in this game dont seem to be too dangerous (yet) when secondary tanks draw aggro.

But, at 44, you have 15 Skill points from puzzles, probably some 12 from quests, and 47 from levels, for about 74 Skill points.

There are 181 Skill allocation slots. So you can get a 40% skill allocation. If you discount the aggro skills, you can have 45% allocation. You probably don't need the 13 in SP passive, which increases that to a 49% allocation.

I know that doesn't sound like much, but it means you can probably max out every skill that has 5-6 allocation slots, and can also halfway max out those which have the insane 20 or 18 skill point allocations. You also don't technically have to max the HP passive.

And then, there's also the fact that Skill resets are abundant, meaning you don't necessarily have to stick to one job. A SW pretty much does not have an option, but to follow its one job.

If they go stealth fully, Sentinels can still debunk them, as can Medics, and can any aoe, And on top of that, they lose alot of attack skills doing that, most of which have 9-55 second cooldowns. A Defender's Longest Attack Cooldown is 40 seconds, and the next best is 30 seconds. Most are between 3 and 20 seconds.

Also, Mechs are an exception to any skill build rule. As long as you have a high enhancement weapon, your mech is going to be just as strong, and in some cases stronger, than any other built Defender. I do think they made a good decision to make Iron skin decrease attack, but as it levels up, does it increase or decrease the amount of attack it reduces (havent gotten that far with it yet)?

I do feel more balance in this game, but I'm concerned that at high levels, that balance is destroyed.  


I do not hit over 1000, I absolutely wish I did. Unless you're talking about in mech form. Which I do agree is very powerful. But my maximum PvP crits with my biggest skill (ult excluded) is always around 500, fully buffed.

Aggro is required for devilkin overlord, I don't know how well other classes do on titan and strider with tanking. But I'll just use devilkin overlord as reference. Our sw's do not last a minute. (20 seconds in fact +-)

Another reason for aggro is, why the Hard would anyone want to take a defender to a dungeon if it can't keep aggro? Sure, you may have a geared SW and healer. But you might as well replace the defender all together then. But it's still early-game and I'm expecting it to be required on later bosses. Note, the population right now is overgeared for level 29s. If the level cap was higher they wouldn't be +7ing level 29 items.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding this one sentence here, but skill resets? Do you mean for the defender to re-spec with skill resets every time he has a different job to do? eg. pve > respec > pvp, repeat. I probably misunderstood, but with the prices. That is not possible. =P

I'm a hybrid between dps and a tank right now which allows my damage to be higher than the average tank, but I have no capabilities to hold aggro at all. Except titan, which has an easier going aggro scheme it seems. (I afk'd a minute while tanking it once.. I was shocked. :p)

But please, keep in mind. I'm strictly trying to keep my opinion to the current level bracket. As I have not studied the capabilities of other classes, so if I'd talk about any of the later game content my opinion would purely be based on assumptions and speculation. While at the current bracket, I can simply give my point of view. Maybe they are broken late game. Maybe not.

My biggest issue actually are SW's (aside from the whipper hook). In large scale battles, their damage often exceeds the healing I can receive. And they just scratch my eyes out and keep my stun locked from 100% to 0%. (Multiple ones of course)
SW's mostly kill us, punishers are most of the time the fodder that feed. Sentinels stun us but aren't much of a danger besides the stuns, in fact the only good sentinel I've ever met is Dienasty.

Defenders we usually ignore, we let them keep hitting. Most are like bee's. they don't really dent anything. Silence/stun lock is painful though, and mechs do hurt, I admit.

Iron skin damage gets lower on every level. -5% per point from what I've seen till now.
What level is your defender? Mine hurt a lot in the earlier levels, I usually had the most kills and did kill most players in seconds but at level 29 and as people started getting 29's I've noticed my damage decreasing and people being able to tank me for much longer. I strongly encourage you to get yours to 29 if it isn't already and to hit any medic in a tank build. He can probably do a /taunt as you're hitting him (If you don't mech).

Two geared and fully buffed defenders cant kill each other, if they're playing their cards right. Pots will outheal both sides' damage received. :p It's depressing!

But I was really just addressing the current state and level bracket as you mentioned, and wanted to share my opinion why I don't think they're broken (Currently).
Still hoping we'll get information from someone with experience at the later levels, also really curious what the two unlisted defender skills do. :)

FoxiVix (SE)/ViciouxVix (DE)
<Murmaider>

FoxiVix PvP Take 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfFKs_GAwXg
FoxiVix PvP Take 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcLFYE7Gklk

Retired.

Rekikyo

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PostedApr 04, 2013 4:17 am
akrstella wrote:

I do not hit over 1000, I absolutely wish I did. Unless you're talking about in mech form. Which I do agree is very powerful. But my maximum PvP crits with my biggest skill (ult excluded) is always around 500, fully buffed.  


In most pvp though, you are in your mech. When charging, you're meched, and when retreating, you mech out to save CP. My Mech does 200 damage to your mech. Absolutely useless.

 

Aggro is required for devilkin overlord, I don't know how well other classes do on titan and strider with tanking. But I'll just use devilkin overlord as reference. Our sw's do not last a minute. (20 seconds in fact +-)

Another reason for aggro is, why the **** would anyone want to take a defender to a dungeon if it can't keep aggro? Sure, you may have a geared SW and healer. But you might as well replace the defender all together then. But it's still early-game and I'm expecting it to be required on later bosses. Note, the population right now is overgeared for level 29s. If the level cap was higher they wouldn't be +7ing level 29 items.  
If the difference in bosses will require defenders to tank in high level, that also means that either other class damage needs to be MULTIPLES of your damage to compensate for your thick skin in pvp, or it means there needs to be less difference between classes than their are (meaning there's a problem).



 
I hope I'm not misunderstanding this one sentence here, but skill resets? Do you mean for the defender to re-spec with skill resets every time he has a different job to do? eg. pve > respec > pvp, repeat. I probably misunderstood, but with the prices. That is not possible. =P  
This is actually quite common in Shaiya, another Aeria game. In Shaiya, the highest DPSER is the one that gets drops. So DPSERS stat back and forth between pvp and pve builds. The AP price is restrictive in SB, but the in game is not so much.

People will spend to win; you know that.


 

My biggest issue actually are SW's (aside from the whipper hook). In large scale battles, their damage often exceeds the healing I can receive. And they just scratch my eyes out and keep my stun locked from 100% to 0%. (Multiple ones of course)
SW's mostly kill us, punishers are most of the time the fodder that feed. Sentinels stun us but aren't much of a danger besides the stuns, in fact the only good sentinel I've ever met is Dienasty.  
If the SW is not killing you, I don't define it as dangerous. My SW is full tilt Damage based, and it hits you for 80-120 in a Rare Cybersuit, and for 200-400 in a Mech. Something's off if you think 80-400 hits are enough to be a threat to the 8000+ HP you have, where HP is maybe healed for 90% of that damage. And even if you are disabled; you're still doing your job of tanking. Which means all of Free Knights's resources are focused on preventing you from killing us with your mech, while the rest of RG can focus on killing us with cyberclusters.

 

Iron skin damage gets lower on every level. -5% per point from what I've seen till now.
What level is your defender? Mine hurt a lot in the earlier levels, I usually had the most kills and did kill most players in seconds but at level 29 and as people started getting 29's I've noticed my damage decreasing and people being able to tank me for much longer. I strongly encourage you to get yours to 29 if it isn't already and to hit any medic in a tank build. He can probably do a /taunt as you're hitting him (If you don't mech).  


Does that mean it goes from -30% attack to -35%, or does it mean it goes to -25%? Hard to tell with your wording. My Defender's still a nub.

@Kougen: actually Naduron was originally expressing that Whippers were overpowered in pvp. I don't remember what he said about any other class, but he essentially said it was a whipper's paradise and everyone else was just in the way.

Kougen

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PostedApr 04, 2013 4:49 am
Rekikyo wrote:
@Kougen: actually Naduron was originally expressing that Whippers were overpowered in pvp. I don't remember what he said about any other class, but he essentially said it was a whipper's paradise and everyone else was just in the way.  

I nearly added something about my Whipper doing everything better than my Defender despite being several levels lower in my last post. I just wish playing her didn't hurt my hand so much (awkward hotkey positioning due to the sheer number of them).

nakadashi.haiji

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PostedApr 04, 2013 4:56 am
I totally agree with the 1st Post. Bravo!

akrstella

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PostedApr 04, 2013 5:03 am   Last edited by akrstella on Apr 04, 2013 6:10 am. Edited 9 times in total
 
If the difference in bosses will require defenders to tank in high level, that also means that either other class damage needs to be MULTIPLES of your damage to compensate for your thick skin in pvp, or it means there needs to be less difference between classes than their are (meaning there's a problem).  


No idea what the damage scales like compared to other levels at a higher bracket, so I certainly hope so. But if you're trying to make clear that 6 defenders > 1 defender and 5 dps classes. Yes. Getting six classes of the same classes will always give you an extreme advantage and can be OP when fighting uncoordinated groups, this is common in most games. But usually at the same time gives you an extreme weakness as well.



 
This is actually quite common in Shaiya, another Aeria game. In Shaiya, the highest DPSER is the one that gets drops. So DPSERS stat back and forth between pvp and pve builds. The AP price is restrictive in SB, but the in game is not so much.

People will spend to win; you know that.  


I.. Woah. 25 bucks for a dungeon run, personally don't see it really happen. It's not impossible, but not very likely at the current level cap as skill resets cost more than the actual loot you get. This is also based on the community. But it'd be interesting to see. Maybe it'll happen, depending on the drop rate. But at that point in time we'll be level 44. Which is irrelevant for now.


 
If the SW is not killing you, I don't define it as dangerous. My SW is full tilt Damage based, and it hits you for 80-120 in a Rare Cybersuit, and for 200-400 in a Mech. Something's off if you think 80-400 hits are enough to be a threat to the 8000+ HP you have, where HP is maybe healed for 90% of that damage. And even if you are disabled; you're still doing your job of tanking. Which means all of Free Knights's resources are focused on preventing you from killing us with your mech, while the rest of RG can focus on killing us with cyberclusters.  


Been abusing my mech a bit because of the blue freya. It's just so good. :p
Honestly? I go mech to do exactly that, tanking. But I get no kills (barely) I'm stunned in the middle of the field without mana. The dps is wasted on me, exactly. I'm doing my job, tanking. And your faction falls for it. You're not supposed to focus the tank, but he is there to sponge up the damage for the people not clever enough to hit the important targets. But a defender is supposed to keep the front line, I do my best in doing so. Mech form supplies me with extra void and 3k hp to keep me up. Without mech I die a lot quicker. However, this is based on the class defender, not me. Every successful group has a tank, you Free Knights's usually don't. Our damage goes straight to your nukers rather than to defenders to sponge up half of the damage. Allowing us to push you out since you have no wall to rely on. This is not the class's fault. (If we're still discussing the balance of defenders here.)

Keep in mind that when you do that damage to me, I'm fully buffed. (Iron skin/Chakra shield/vitals/medic void shield, sometimes and often those white punisher circles. Which are helping utilities which come down to teamwork, not all given to defenders themselves.
Now Iron skin, can't be kept up at all times and it reduces my damage by currently 40%, sorry for being unclear in my last post. The damage reduction goes up. So it'll cap at 50% I assume. It's -40% at level 3/5. So with this up, I'm unable to kill anyone without mech form assuming you have a medic or run away (200 crits max?). Which does make me a wet noodle that is no more than an annoying damage sponge. Without mech I have 4.5~5k hp. Which is nearly 40% less than the initial 9k as stated before in this topic. So, yes. The mech makes me a world boss for a certain amount of time. Granted I'm fully buffed with a medic watching over me.

Also I think if a SW and a medic and a Defender and a medic duel up. The SW+ME side will most likely win as they have the burst to take the other medic down. But that's small scale based so also irrelevant.

Now I'm going to show you something, if you don't mind. Sorry if it's not processed yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xSgTGqWFDs

In this video, you can see me in my old dps spec. Yes, my hp is lower. But bare in mind this SW had a +4 weapon if not lower, and my armor has not changed much since then. (Hi Kaji!)
Kaji is one of the most pain in the *** SW's I've came across, he plays his class very sneakily. He walks in my shadows and kills his targets off-guard, which is exactly what assassin gameplay is all about. Now in my tank spec, this doesn't really happen anymore. But he can easily get away, stealth and attack me off-guard again as my damage isn't high enough to burst him down in time. (Unless I mech and don't mess up.)
I'm not using this video to prove a my entire point, as he did use his ult. But it goes to show that defenders can die without an army.
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