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raedrin

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raedrin
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PostedMar 21, 2013 9:13 am
sweetxdevil357 wrote:
A simple, short answer: Yes.

They are very outclassed, they're never needed except for when there is a sleep-inducing boss/monster.

I mean sure, as a tank I do love the song of illusion a lot but is it necessary? Not really. Is MoL necessary? Nope, Healing Radiance/Drops of Heaven does better. Are the dmg/crit+ buffs essential? Not at all.

So yes, it's outclassed and not needed. People who say otherwise are lying to themselves.  


-.-

Did you not read any of the posts by Miku, Nuxley, Angela, or myself? I'm not going to repeat it b/c its already been said in those posts. Bard is a great class and has a great role in end-game pvp.

Please don't post false information when the question has already been answered .-.

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sweetxdevil357

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PostedMar 21, 2013 9:24 am
raedrin wrote:
sweetxdevil357 wrote:
A simple, short answer: Yes.

They are very outclassed, they're never needed except for when there is a sleep-inducing boss/monster.

I mean sure, as a tank I do love the song of illusion a lot but is it necessary? Not really. Is MoL necessary? Nope, Healing Radiance/Drops of Heaven does better. Are the dmg/crit+ buffs essential? Not at all.

So yes, it's outclassed and not needed. People who say otherwise are lying to themselves.  


-.-

Did you not read any of the posts by Miku, Nuxley, Angela, or myself? I'm not going to repeat it b/c its already been said in those posts. Bard is a great class and has a great role in end-game pvp.

Please don't post false information when the question has already been answered .-.  


Yes I have. The OP specifically asked about trials, not pvp.

katashi65

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PostedMar 21, 2013 11:33 am
sweetxdevil357 wrote:
A simple, short answer: Yes.

They are very outclassed, they're never needed except for when there is a sleep-inducing boss/monster.

I mean sure, as a tank I do love the song of illusion a lot but is it necessary? Not really. Is MoL necessary? Nope, Healing Radiance/Drops of Heaven does better. Are the dmg/crit+ buffs essential? Not at all.

So yes, it's outclassed and not needed. People who say otherwise are lying to themselves.  



Bards before the 72 skills were able to be heavy single target nukers not unlike Warlock, maybe a bit less powerful, but faster to respond, not reliant on Cast Speed, and able self-buff for high Def, Eva, and Crit Rates (and 10% Movement Speed for what it's worth). They and their team are immune to Illusionists both in Arena and TW/GvG, and that is more then enough to use them for. Otherwise, their buffs are critical for getting the most out of each player on a team and capping crystals or wiping enemies.

Now, with the 72 skills out, Bard is an overpowered menace on the battlefield. They can sweep a huge 20 fan area with Lightning damage, and since most people don't stack Lightning resist, most find themselves taking 30k-40k damage. Survivable, but a Bard can follow up with instacast Vocal Bomb as well. Since both of these skills are instacast, it only takes 1.5 seconds to cast both of them, or less with animation canceling for those who do that. The cooldown on Vocal Bomb is 3 seconds, and the Lightning AoE is 1.5 seconds, so Bards can keep it up without worry of a dull moment; it's probably more trouble to spare a second or two to renew Spirited Melody and Song of Illusion.

In strictly PvP settings, they are heavy ranged AoE wipers now as well as support. It just takes a person with dedication to the class instead of people running around in P-DPS armor pretending to be dps Bards.

raedrin

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PostedMar 21, 2013 12:15 pm
 
Yes I have. The OP specifically asked about trials, not pvp.  


Ok since you want to be technical, let's talk about trials.

Yes, its true that bards are not NEEDED in trials, in which the word NEEDED here means REQUIRED. It's totally possible to do a trial without one, just as its possible to do it without a melee dps or even a tank.

My issue is that you present bard in your post like it's the most useless class alive. Bard is hardly outclassed. It grants buffs that no other class can provide to the party.

Is MoL necessary? No, but it's helpful, especially in cases where the healers become disabled. Perhaps a boss uses an aoe stun and the healers can't move out of the way in time. During those few seconds, the party would be vulnerable since no one can move and the tank's precious evasion would be reduced to 0. MoL would be the only thing healing the party until the stun wore off, and could potentially save someone's life.

Songs of Illusion - this buff is so OP I shouldn't even have to go into it. It helps the tank and makes the party as a whole less squishy. Enough said.

Now this is what really interests me about your post:

 
Are the dmg/crit+ buffs essential? Not at all  


My face when I saw this ^



Who wouldn't want a damage boost? More damage = the trial is finished faster. But if that isn't enough, perhaps I should appeal to a more tank-specific benefit since I know that you tank. As it happens, I happen to see that a lot of your posts in forums seem to revolve around how OP dps are and how they do too much damage for your knight to hold aggro against. I even remember seeing something about you losing aggro to someone's puppy?

If this is such a problem I would think that you more than anyone would be embracing a bard with open arms for a trial. Spirit Melody and the dmg increasing buffs would increase YOUR dmg (and not a player pet even, to take it 1 step further) which would ultimately help you in keeping aggro.

At this point I'm expecting you to counter me with something about the buff also making mages and other dps in the party more OP as well. For that, bards also get that nifty skill called "Burning Metal" that, when stacked, lowers enemy defense by a huge amount. It is well known that magic dps ignores defense, so what does this do? Increases the potential damage output of pdps users, such as knights, giving you yet another way to increase your dps to ensure that you keep malice. See what I did there?

And I haven't even mentioned dps bards yet. Imagine having all the benefits of a the bard buffs, as well as a rather OP dps who is probably first or second highest dps in the party. Bards who can reach higher matk than most mages of their level (who don't have their gear sorted) are outclassed. Right.

I honestly don't see the point of continuing this argument. The OP already had their question answered as I said before. Hopefully they'll have the good sense to take the answer of the several credible people who chose to post on this thread over the answer of a knight whom I'm not even sure is above lvl 60.

Edit: and if anyone wants my own personal opinion of a bard in trials, I'd honestly prefer a bard to a tank, since most tanks can't hold aggro over me anyway and the Song of Illusion helps my mage tank better.

derakidol

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PostedMar 21, 2013 12:36 pm
sweetxdevil357 wrote:
A simple, short answer: Yes.

They are very outclassed, they're never needed except for when there is a sleep-inducing boss/monster.

I mean sure, as a tank I do love the song of illusion a lot but is it necessary? Not really. Is MoL necessary? Nope, Healing Radiance/Drops of Heaven does better. Are the dmg/crit+ buffs essential? Not at all.

So yes, it's outclassed and not needed. People who say otherwise are lying to themselves.  


I guess you never tried to kill the bosses in DD and VL.

sweetxdevil357

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PostedMar 21, 2013 4:44 pm
raedrin wrote:
 
Yes I have. The OP specifically asked about trials, not pvp.  


Ok since you want to be technical, let's talk about trials.

Yes, its true that bards are not NEEDED in trials, in which the word NEEDED here means REQUIRED. It's totally possible to do a trial without one, just as its possible to do it without a melee dps or even a tank.

My issue is that you present bard in your post like it's the most useless class alive. Bard is hardly outclassed. It grants buffs that no other class can provide to the party.

Is MoL necessary? No, but it's helpful, especially in cases where the healers become disabled. Perhaps a boss uses an aoe stun and the healers can't move out of the way in time. During those few seconds, the party would be vulnerable since no one can move and the tank's precious evasion would be reduced to 0. MoL would be the only thing healing the party until the stun wore off, and could potentially save someone's life.

Songs of Illusion - this buff is so OP I shouldn't even have to go into it. It helps the tank and makes the party as a whole less squishy. Enough said.

Now this is what really interests me about your post:

 
Are the dmg/crit+ buffs essential? Not at all  


My face when I saw this ^
[img]pictureofanegrojpg[img]


Who wouldn't want a damage boost? More damage = the trial is finished faster. But if that isn't enough, perhaps I should appeal to a more tank-specific benefit since I know that you tank. As it happens, I happen to see that a lot of your posts in forums seem to revolve around how OP dps are and how they do too much damage for your knight to hold aggro against. I even remember seeing something about you losing aggro to someone's puppy?

If this is such a problem I would think that you more than anyone would be embracing a bard with open arms for a trial. Spirit Melody and the dmg increasing buffs would increase YOUR dmg (and not a player pet even, to take it 1 step further) which would ultimately help you in keeping aggro.

At this point I'm expecting you to counter me with something about the buff also making mages and other dps in the party more OP as well. For that, bards also get that nifty skill called "Burning Metal" that, when stacked, lowers enemy defense by a huge amount. It is well known that magic dps ignores defense, so what does this do? Increases the potential damage output of pdps users, such as knights, giving you yet another way to increase your dps to ensure that you keep malice. See what I did there?

And I haven't even mentioned dps bards yet. Imagine having all the benefits of a the bard buffs, as well as a rather OP dps who is probably first or second highest dps in the party. Bards who can reach higher matk than most mages of their level (who don't have their gear sorted) are outclassed. Right.

I honestly don't see the point of continuing this argument. The OP already had their question answered as I said before. Hopefully they'll have the good sense to take the answer of the several credible people who chose to post on this thread over the answer of a knight whom I'm not even sure is above lvl 60.

Edit: and if anyone wants my own personal opinion of a bard in trials, I'd honestly prefer a bard to a tank, since most tanks can't hold aggro over me anyway and the Song of Illusion helps my mage tank better.  


Let's agree to disagree.

I just can't seem to get the idea of a bard being essential in a party. And just so you know I am 60+ (no, not 65.), I've done the 60 trials and got quite familiar with them, and I don't recall many parties where they needed a bard.

The original question of the thread was that if bards are outclassed. Now, since bards are technically healers, they ARE outclassed. Are they outclassed by many as a DPS ? I can't say for sure since I personally haven't seen many dps bards, but on paper they would seem to be outclassed.

I didn't go as far as to saying bards are the most useless class in the game, but it sure is one of the less-needed classes. Is it possible to play most of this game without ever needing a bard? yes. Think of bards as that little slice of orange they sometimes put on a glass of orange juice. Is it necessary? Well, no. But it does make the glass look a bit prettier.. Excuse me for the lack of examples.

katashi65

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PostedMar 21, 2013 5:36 pm
The essential parts of a team are a tank and a healer. In some cases, OP tanks won't need healers at all or OP Clerics don't need tanks for them. It all depends, but for the sake of simplicity, we can assume the core framework of a team are tank + healer. Everybody else is a luxury to help speed the team along for dungeons assuming there aren't special requirements for the bosses, such as needing to kill both Torreyaces simultaneously in Skleros Trial. So I hope we've worked out the difference between NEEDED and DESIRABLE.

If I remember correctly, the branches are called Defense, Melee DPS, Range DPS, Healer/Support, and Magic DPS. Bard would fall under the Support category of its respective branch, and in that regard it's almost unmatched. Every class does something different. If Bard and Cleric were equally good healers with almost identical skills . . . then what's the point? We'd lose out on the convenience of having an OP Defensive buff, Crit Rate boosting, sleep immunity, and a powerful Defense debuff to speed a trial along. I've heard players in the Taiwan server saw the utility of Bard long ago and use it as a staple support member of the party (whereas we use Illusionist). Aside from support, Illusionist is the class with better single target damage and Bard the one with better AoE damage for sure.

In terms of DPS, Bards fall below Illusionist and Mage in terms of single target and AoE damage respectively. However, they are probably on par with or stronger than Blade Dancer without Bard support (pardon the irony of this comparison) for AoE damage and probably above most range dps, though it's hard to compare Bard's steady damage to Ranger's huge burst. It also largely depends on the individual . . . and for the sake of comparison, I'll just point out that I've seen Bards with well over 60k M-Atk, which slightly pushes above most P-DPS (this statement made with regard to +10 gear for both parties).

And that little slice of lemon or orange you get on the drink is what pushes "average" to "sophisticated." Necessary? No. Does it contribute to the atmosphere and flavor? Yes.

We could remove the Martial Artist class from the game entirely. If it had been like this from the start, could we still have played the game and enjoyed it? Yep. But they're generally accepted as a great PvP class and a top single target damager.

SapphireMiku

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PostedMar 22, 2013 4:44 pm
sweetxdevil357 wrote:
Now, since bards are technically healers, they ARE outclassed.  



By that logic, Illusionist is outclassed too since Mage can output more MDPS with AoE skills. But I think we can all agree illusionists ARE just as useful because of their non-dps skills such as sleep, mind surge, and stimulation. So comparing bard to cleric just because they are both in the "healing" branch is like comparing apples to oranges. One is a healer, one is player support.

Think of bard as more like a magnifying glass. They multiply your parties survivability and DPS exponentially.

This is particularity noticeable as you level up and start doing 8, and 10 man trials. And EXTREMELY noticeable in end game dungeons such as DD and VL. Monsters there can eat highly geared tanks alive without some sort of buff support. We just killed a few of the last boss in DD. If the transition continues, with more and more bosses gaining MELEE aoe skills, 75 trials will all but require a bard to survive.

Your entitles to your opinion on what you think about how useful bard class is; but I can tell you from personal experience. I've mained bard for a long time and every time I do a dungeon/TW/Trial party with people who haven't used bards before, end up saying how much they love having one in the party. Just personal opinion though.

randypen

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PostedAug 08, 2013 12:10 am
bard is good in late game.

in my opinion, since the new patch came the bard class became more useful when hits lv72 for the new aoe skill, and it has a very short cooldown and you can spam it with tornado which became a long range now. you can also spam the new lv72 skill with vocal bomb with the bard glyph for faster cooldown, very good combination for single targets. so a dps class which gives a good support for the team is always good. Razz

gcxu

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PostedSep 19, 2013 3:52 am
Bard is pretty dam good tbh. Its versatile: you can build them to farm DD, pvp, or just support pve. Not to mention there are several situations where I would prefer a bard over any class tbh. For example: if a boss in tower has hibernate or nightmare, a bard with their sleep immunity buff is easily more useful than an extra dps or tank IMO.

Yes bards aren't excellent healers, but their support skills are awesome. Burning metal decrease like 9k def once stacked. Song of illusion gives like 4k def and a crap ton of eva.

Side main a bard, its pretty legit...especially if you are a halfkin. Awaken guitar +14 w/ halfkin racial is just straight nasty. 40k vocal bombs on rapid fire is pretty scary =X

Bottom line: Bards are useful regardless of level
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