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kikix12

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kikix12
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PostedFeb 14, 2013 10:41 am
Killa_1112 wrote:
Then limit to reflection skilles (melee reflect and DF) but not untouchables. You are taking away the defenders only true advantage. Unless you want to disallow pots so the stuns actually have meaningful effect.  
Frankly, this sort of events in Shaiya is going to be biased. Period.

Shaiya never was balanced. Even though it is supposed to be PvP minded, it was never even balanced in PvP, which should have many people at once. It is simply impossible to make it balanced in smaller teams.

Guardians/defenders and rangers/assassins get the short end of the deal, for a valid reason. The first ones, because their core skills (untouchables of all sorts) are unique in multiple ways. 1) They are absolute (there is absolutely no counter to them).
2) They sum up to be far too long. Even individually, a single skill is long enough to completely mess up the result.
3) They have no reasonable equivalent in other classes. No other class have any skill which is as game-breaking as untouchables.

As far as leaving a single self-buff which gives untouchable state could be reasonable (I do not know current "balance" in the game), two or more would be just ridiculous.

Assassins/rangers on the other hand get the short end for debuffs, which are the core of these classes. With pots that can be spammed, they lose a whole lot of their usability. This was always a problem and I'm sure it will not change anytime soon, if ever. Personally I think that most of debuffs for these classes should be unpottable, limited few even undispellable maybe. But Shaiya developers never really did show much interest in any sort of class balance.


For those that want ultimate skills...Kamains Breath and Reginas Power (well, whatever they are called now) are probably still AoE, and both of them deal massive damage. With these skills, a battle could last two seconds or less and have absolutely no skill involved. They were and always will be pointless.

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Killa_1112

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 11:13 am
EllaIzzy13 wrote:
Killa_1112 wrote:
EllaIzzy13 wrote:
For clarification on why we are not allowing the UTs:

-It would make the battles unnecessarily long.
-There are people who make their entire battling experience out of DF and UTs and with possibility of 2 guards, that's just too much time to have people standing around or beating on each other to no end.


It is in NO WAY being biased towards Guardians/Defenders; we just want the battles to last a bearable amount of time.

EDIT: If you want UTs, just bring UT pots.  
Then limit to reflection skilles (melee reflect and DF) but not untouchables. You are taking away the defenders only true advantage. Unless you want to disallow pots so the stuns actually have meaningful effect.  


They have Behemoth Rage, which has hit my level 80 mage for over 44K before, they have IS, they have some of the best buffs and debuffs. Not everyone is quick at potting, so their debuffs can actually work for at least a few seconds.  
Missing the point. You are putting clear limits on one class. Why not ask healers not to heal? Same effect right? Long draw out battles if they do. You are swinging it clearly in the favor of the other classes. OK BR does 44k, next move? You are saying that 'some' people might not be good and using that at a defense, is this not meant to be a test of the best?

Not buying it.

@ Kik, You forget, where is a defenders defence against any ranged class? It cannot hit them, they have 0 ranges offensive attack. Every other class does have one. UT is the only think you can do against it.

- Courtesy of the Great Avyn

kikix12

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 1:35 pm
Killa_1112 wrote:
@ Kik, You forget, where is a defenders defence against any ranged class? It cannot hit them, they have 0 ranges offensive attack. Every other class does have one. UT is the only think you can do against it.  
You do realize this does not help you any, right?!

Range is absolutely NOT as much of an advantage as an untouchability. Furthermore, if you can not do any damage to a ranged attacker when untouchability is off, then what it being on changes?! It just wastes time. Since it does not help against range difference, your argument, at least this one, is null.

Furthermore, this is currently a group event, right?! There are three classes with real range attacks. Archer, mage and priest, with their fury equivalent. Out of these three, only archer have non-magic ranged attack. Everyone says that mages are greatly underpowered, that magic is underpowered, so they shouldn't pose much of an influence, right?! And priests have magical ranged attack, while not even focusing on offense. I don't think there is point of including battle-priests as that much of a threat.

Every class other than defender/guardian have counters to range of some sort, according to what you said, right?! But absolutely no other class have a counter to untouchability. Even guardian/defender have no counter. Untouchability VS untouchability = boredom/stalemate.

Since guardian/defender have a considerable weakness against a single class, then...don't have your teams guardian/defender try to fight that class...Simple. Have the teams fighter/warrior, archer/hunter or mage/pagan take care of opponents archer/hunter and mage/pagan. As a defender/guardian, go for fighter/warrior or ranger/assassin, or interrupt priests/oracles heals. You have range for debuffs, so you can counter cast-time spells.

As I said, the rules are against defenders/guardians, but this is only a result of the developers take on balance. Guardians/defenders in small-scale battles have outright broken skills, while the class may (or may not, I do not know how it is currently) be inferior without them. However...frankly...I doubt that.

Killa_1112

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 2:39 pm
kikix12 wrote:
stuff.  
Whatevs, i don't even play anymore, and neither do you.

Most of what you have said i already know, the other part (kiting < UTs) i don't agree with, but there is no point in arguing with you kik, i would rather not read another 10 paras.

- Courtesy of the Great Avyn

Rekikyo

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 3:52 pm
EllaIzzy13 wrote:
Killa_1112 wrote:
EllaIzzy13 wrote:
For clarification on why we are not allowing the UTs:

-It would make the battles unnecessarily long.
-There are people who make their entire battling experience out of DF and UTs and with possibility of 2 guards, that's just too much time to have people standing around or beating on each other to no end.


It is in NO WAY being biased towards Guardians/Defenders; we just want the battles to last a bearable amount of time.

EDIT: If you want UTs, just bring UT pots.  
Then limit to reflection skilles (melee reflect and DF) but not untouchables. You are taking away the defenders only true advantage. Unless you want to disallow pots so the stuns actually have meaningful effect.  


They have Behemoth Rage, which has hit my level 80 mage for over 44K before, they have IS, they have some of the best buffs and debuffs. Not everyone is quick at potting, so their debuffs can actually work for at least a few seconds.  


That Behemoth Range is the ONLY skill a Guard has that can do significant damage (you also mentioned MAGE; the class with the lowest defense, and offensive capability); versus a warrior, guard, rec orc, it only hits 25-30k versus 85-120k HP.

If they don't have UT's they will not be good contributors to this tournament.

Every skill except Demon Hush is pretty much melee range, and has no damage addy buffer to the skill. That means, a kiter can pretty much make a guard a paper weight. It's also physically impossible for a guard to kill a hunter (if both people know how to play), without dayfly.

Basically what you are creating, is a scenario where Fighters/Warriors can full chain in 18 seconds, with a total of 10 hits, all supplemented by damage additions, and 8k attack, versus Guards with around 7k attack, no repeat skills, debuffs mostly potted by one pot (and since there are only 6 debuffs, that pretty much makes them useless after expending the 6 for a minute). Hunters will kite and spam unpottable degens, while hitting 9k on Rec toons, and 13k on non rec toons.

Dayfly is a 55 second buff. Wide Guard is up to 25 seconds. Those are the only party UT's. How is that exactly, "Long and drawn out," when it's a one shot ability per round? That's 1 minute 20 seconds of strategic defense.

Your IS argument also makes no sense, because both parties would have the opportunity to have it.

Why are you limiting the party to one guard per party, if you don't intend to use UT's? Without UT's they are pretty much like a skill-less warrior.

You are overthinking the fact past TvT's have had guards stack their skills and create undying situations. But that simply will not happen with just one. It would require 3.

@ Kikix: the primary advantage of DF is versus Archers. If they use Deadly poison shot, you can kill them with it. In that instance, DF is truly an offensive skill. Also, DF can be used if timed correctly to send a 80 skill back on its caster. If you use KB or Divine Burst on several targets at once, there is a good chance DF can kill you!

Killa_1112

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 4:01 pm
Rekikyo wrote:
EllaIzzy13 wrote:
Killa_1112 wrote:
EllaIzzy13 wrote:
For clarification on why we are not allowing the UTs:

-It would make the battles unnecessarily long.
-There are people who make their entire battling experience out of DF and UTs and with possibility of 2 guards, that's just too much time to have people standing around or beating on each other to no end.


It is in NO WAY being biased towards Guardians/Defenders; we just want the battles to last a bearable amount of time.

EDIT: If you want UTs, just bring UT pots.  
Then limit to reflection skilles (melee reflect and DF) but not untouchables. You are taking away the defenders only true advantage. Unless you want to disallow pots so the stuns actually have meaningful effect.  


They have Behemoth Rage, which has hit my level 80 mage for over 44K before, they have IS, they have some of the best buffs and debuffs. Not everyone is quick at potting, so their debuffs can actually work for at least a few seconds.  


That Behemoth Range is the ONLY skill a Guard has that can do significant damage (you also mentioned MAGE; the class with the lowest defense, and offensive capability); versus a warrior, guard, rec orc, it only hits 25-30k versus 85-120k HP.

If they don't have UT's they will not be good contributors to this tournament.

Every skill except Demon Hush is pretty much melee range, and has no damage addy buffer to the skill. That means, a kiter can pretty much make a guard a paper weight. It's also physically impossible for a guard to kill a hunter (if both people know how to play), without dayfly.

Basically what you are creating, is a scenario where Fighters/Warriors can full chain in 18 seconds, with a total of 10 hits, all supplemented by damage additions, and 8k attack, versus Guards with around 7k attack, no repeat skills, debuffs mostly potted by one pot (and since there are only 6 debuffs, that pretty much makes them useless after expending the 6 for a minute). Hunters will kite and spam unpottable degens, while hitting 9k on Rec toons, and 13k on non rec toons.

Dayfly is a 55 second buff. Wide Guard is up to 25 seconds. Those are the only party UT's. How is that exactly, "Long and drawn out," when it's a one shot ability per round? That's 1 minute 20 seconds of strategic defense.

Your IS argument also makes no sense, because both parties would have the opportunity to have it.

Why are you limiting the party to one guard per party, if you don't intend to use UT's? Without UT's they are pretty much like a skill-less warrior.

You are overthinking the fact past TvT's have had guards stack their skills and create undying situations. But that simply will not happen with just one. It would require 3.

@ Kikix: the primary advantage of DF is versus Archers. If they use Deadly poison shot, you can kill them with it. In that instance, DF is truly an offensive skill. Also, DF can be used if timed correctly to send a 80 skill back on its caster. If you use KB or Divine Burst on several targets at once, there is a good chance DF can kill you!  
Well, never thought i would see you back my corner.

Credit where credits due, Cheers.

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JamesGodden

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 4:42 pm
Rekikyo wrote:
Basically what you are creating, is a scenario where Fighters/Warriors can full chain in 18 seconds, with a total of 10 hits, all supplemented by damage additions, and 8k attack, versus Guards with around 7k attack.  


Your post maks sense to me xcpt your attack powr numbrs are low for both those classes Very Happy at least they are if they ar trying to be full on Warrs and Bguards and not trying to hybrid too much rec/abs into their builds (there have been 2 full rec fighters relying on the bas atk of their wapons n str links, both were also useless at DPSing)

TheReedeemer

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 5:45 pm
Seems like this event wasn't thought about and isn't planned at all atm. You have just nerfed Def/guard skills and are trying to convince yourself that you have really thought this event through. There is a reason for all those skills there for that class. They make that class unique able to survive in a battle they are invincible but not for that long . It looks like you just want to make and event and finish it off as soon as it is possible with disregards for the game mechanics .
The only Suggestion i can add is to remove the restriction on skills.

kikix12

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 5:54 pm
Killa_1112 wrote:
Whatevs, i don't even play anymore, and neither do you.  
If that ever mattered, neither of us would even start posting here.

Killa_1112 wrote:
Most of what you have said i already know, the other part (kiting < UTs) i don't agree with, but there is no point in arguing with you kik, i would rather not read another 10 paras.  
It is really simple. If defenders/guardians can't win against ranged enemies because their attacks can't reach them, then untouchability changes nothing. It will only end up making both sides run around and use the time for pots.

Rekikyo wrote:
@ Kikix: the primary advantage of DF is versus Archers. If they use Deadly poison shot, you can kill them with it. In that instance, DF is truly an offensive skill. Also, DF can be used if timed correctly to send a 80 skill back on its caster. If you use KB or Divine Burst on several targets at once, there is a good chance DF can kill you!  
I don't remember mentioning Dayfly in particular at any point. I guess it is argument as to it being anti-ranged attack.

However, ultimate skills are forbidden for a valid reason. They all change a game into simple gamble. If you get lucky with dayfly, you win. If not, you lose. Sucky outcome for an event, don't you think?!
The only workaround is to go with single-hit ultimates from archer/hunter and ranger/archer to trigger the opponents dayfly or kill him before he can use it...and then it is back to square one.

It being "offensive" skill is a play on words. It is a pure defensive skill. Counters are part of defense and exactly that is dayfly.


That being said, ain't no way to make an unfair game become fair. That's why I suggested a limit of exactly one, for every class. That way, nerfed or not, a member of any class is going to be valuable. The rest of rules would then work only to make the time of battle reasonable.
In that situation, I wouldn't really see the point of discussing the skill limitations in the first place. Though I guess it feels better to be a juggernaught than the average Joe.

Killa_1112

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PostedFeb 14, 2013 5:59 pm
kikix12 wrote:
Killa_1112 wrote:
Whatevs, i don't even play anymore, and neither do you.  
If that ever mattered, neither of us would even start posting here.

Killa_1112 wrote:
Most of what you have said i already know, the other part (kiting < UTs) i don't agree with, but there is no point in arguing with you kik, i would rather not read another 10 paras.  
It is really simple. If defenders/guardians can't win against ranged enemies because their attacks can't reach them, then untouchability changes nothing. It will only end up making both sides run around and use the time for pots.

 
If your smart there are ways to close the gap. But its not easy.

Either way you have just blown your point about defs guards 'needing to be nerfed' apparently it matters not if they are. The result will be the same. Whereas my point still stands, Defs have no range and against any ranged opponent, they are weak, UT gives time, sometimes your opponent slips up giving you an opening or sometimes you can land a lucky stun with a debuff wep allowing you to close the gap using fear.

Are we done yet?

- Courtesy of the Great Avyn
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