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MPure

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MPure
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17 May 2010
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398
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Canada
PostedJan 31, 2013 8:05 pm
The right tree is far from useless on a warrior, just that is is vastly overshadowed by the left tree. Heck, half of the left tree is useless fluff as well.
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Bryan.Fury

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PostedJan 31, 2013 8:08 pm
I have added more links to my suggestion since i made more..

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Rekikyo

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Rekikyo
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8506
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PostedJan 31, 2013 8:36 pm
Reaps989 wrote:

[*]Cooldowns - Multiple 3m+ CD on paladin, multiple 5m+ on Warrior, believe there is one on Sorc, and only one 10m on SM. Most of which are nice without a doubt, but 5+ minutes it a bit harsh for a few moments. SM's regen is "legit", no doubt, but I will not advocate a skill with 10m CD when I can spend the SP getting Healer/Soul Burn/Mana Drain  


Currently, an SM cannot get Soul burn and Mana Drain at the same time as Dark Cauldron. To me, Death's Cauldron is an important skill for my play-style.

 
41 Wis - 205 MP, 205 mpr (Not that I would recommend going Wis on a warrior, however this should be how Paladin's scale)
 

I would love to know how 41 wis only = 205 MP and 205 Regen? That's only 5 MP per point, which I find to be total blasphemy (if not it is a bug).


 
[*]Armor : I never stated buffing it to the point where they are "unkillable", more-so of perks here and there. I never gave hard numbers, nor did I state "I want untouchable dodge or unmatchable defense.". I stated, buffing it slightly to improve the 1-30 grind which isn't hard to do.  
I'm the one who said this is what will happen.

If you give one class 100% more dodge than the others, and the other class 100% more armor, it will lead to a major pvp problem:

If we were to re-arrange current dodge/defense to equal your hypothesis, we would have warriors with a base 1125 Defense, and 750 base dodge, and casters with 750 Base defense, 1125 Dodge.

If you add in Dodge or Defense Linkage (we can't compare dex versus something because there is no Defense modding stat), we have 4 possibilities:

-Melee 1125 Defense, 950 Dodge
-Melee 1325 Defense, 750 Dodge
-Caster 750 Defense, 1325 Dodge
-Caster 950 Defense, 1125 Dodge

And then you have to consider their weighted assistance.
Versus a 40 weapon with 1000 Accuracy, and perhaps an average 500 damage on melee,

1- 500-112.5 (387.5)( Damage taken, 22.5% reduction), 950-1000 (-50)/1000 Accuracy = 0% Dodge.
2- 500-132.5 (367.5)(26.5% less damage, Difference of 4 %), 0% Dodge

3- 500-75 (425)(15% less Damage), 1325-1000 (325)/1000 = 32.5% Dodge
4- 500-95 (405)(19% less Damage), 1125-1000 (125)/1000= 12.5% Dodge

Now, when you weight their benefits: (Based on 10 attacks)
Melee 1 = 3875 Damage Taken in 10 hits (387.5*10, no Dodge)
Melee 2 = 3675 Damage Taken (etc).

Caster 1 = 286.875*10= 2868.75 (.675*425*10+32.5*0)
Caster 2 = 354.375*10= 3543.75 (.875*405*10+12.5*0)


In other words, just because of the difference in defense of Dodge and Armor, and how their formulas work, your suggestion pretty much gives Casters an absolute advantage, because Armor's impact is not as large as Dodge's. The current gear gives both casters AND Melee the option to take advantage of the greater stat: Dodge.

 
[*]Mephisto's Thorn - I assure you that you won't slaughter me faster, and currently you can get all the DoT's while still having large nukes. Unless you've forgotten, it takes 25 to get 1 point into MT which then leaves you with 17. This allows you to get everything except for the paralyze and final nuke on the left tree. While, yes that skill does impressive damage you still are able to stack 4 DoT's and cycle through other nukes.  
The key advantage of Death's Cauldron is it does not have a cast time. If you give me 4 Dots PLUS DC, I can easily smack about 1800 damage on you in about 2 seconds, and -320 Bleed on you per second within 4 seconds. On the current skill adjustment, I cannot do that. I can only give around 150-210 degen, in addition to a 700 damage DC.

 
[*]"Unplayable" - Is a strong word, afterall the only thing it would do it make players more focused into DPS rather than doing everything. Currently, you have no "trade-off". It's either ??/11 or ??/19+. The thing it "would" do is make the class more defined in it's roles like other classes.  
There is a major fallacy in what you are claiming here; A full healer will not have any option regarding attack skills given your trees, up until the point where they get their max heal trees.

Also, your skill setup proposal is severely flawed, in that every single skill that benefits an SM is obtainable in one build at final level, with the exception of the self defense buff. You're giving me every buff, every final damage skill, in addition to the important heals, all in one build. A SM doesn't need Healer, Nature's Aspect, Critical Heal or Soul Burn; All the items you put high up in the skill list.

(I also think it's hilarious that you think a 275 defense skill deserves to be at a 20 skill point Tier, when Sorcs have a 450 defense buff at 14, and a 600 defense buff at 18 .....)

 
If "Mana" was a problem, my groups would die more often. Sacrifice and Mana Drain along with potions all cover any "mana issues" I have. That's 500 mana in 1s, the next is more-so to hurt the enemies mana as I only have 1 point into it while still healing 40 of my own. However, this isn't the tread for that Very Happy  
Your group doesn't die because supplemented group buffs make healing easy. Healing solo is a completely different story. An SM can't grind pull-style in dungeon or Emphlant very well without the Defender buff, and have tons of MP problems when their survival purely mounts on them. Mp Maintenance is very different between a group and solo. Group = can slack off, and wait for some MP regen.

Reaps989

Rank 0
Joined
19 Nov 2006
Posts
73
PostedJan 31, 2013 11:41 pm
Rekikyo wrote:
Reaps989 wrote:

[*]Cooldowns - Multiple 3m+ CD on paladin, multiple 5m+ on Warrior, believe there is one on Sorc, and only one 10m on SM. Most of which are nice without a doubt, but 5+ minutes it a bit harsh for a few moments. SM's regen is "legit", no doubt, but I will not advocate a skill with 10m CD when I can spend the SP getting Healer/Soul Burn/Mana Drain  


Currently, an SM cannot get Soul burn and Mana Drain at the same time as Dark Cauldron. To me, Death's Cauldron is an important skill for my play-style.

 
41 Wis - 205 MP, 205 mpr (Not that I would recommend going Wis on a warrior, however this should be how Paladin's scale)
 

I would love to know how 41 wis only = 205 MP and 205 Regen? That's only 5 MP per point, which I find to be total blasphemy (if not it is a bug).


 
[*]Armor : I never stated buffing it to the point where they are "unkillable", more-so of perks here and there. I never gave hard numbers, nor did I state "I want untouchable dodge or unmatchable defense.". I stated, buffing it slightly to improve the 1-30 grind which isn't hard to do.  
I'm the one who said this is what will happen.

If you give one class 100% more dodge than the others, and the other class 100% more armor, it will lead to a major pvp problem:

If we were to re-arrange current dodge/defense to equal your hypothesis, we would have warriors with a base 1125 Defense, and 750 base dodge, and casters with 750 Base defense, 1125 Dodge.

If you add in Dodge or Defense Linkage (we can't compare dex versus something because there is no Defense modding stat), we have 4 possibilities:

-Melee 1125 Defense, 950 Dodge
-Melee 1325 Defense, 750 Dodge
-Caster 750 Defense, 1325 Dodge
-Caster 950 Defense, 1125 Dodge

And then you have to consider their weighted assistance.
Versus a 40 weapon with 1000 Accuracy, and perhaps an average 500 damage on melee,

1- 500-112.5 (387.5)( Damage taken, 22.5% reduction), 950-1000 (-50)/1000 Accuracy = 0% Dodge.
2- 500-132.5 (367.5)(26.5% less damage, Difference of 4 %), 0% Dodge

3- 500-75 (425)(15% less Damage), 1325-1000 (325)/1000 = 32.5% Dodge
4- 500-95 (405)(19% less Damage), 1125-1000 (125)/1000= 12.5% Dodge

Now, when you weight their benefits: (Based on 10 attacks)
Melee 1 = 3875 Damage Taken in 10 hits (387.5*10, no Dodge)
Melee 2 = 3675 Damage Taken (etc).

Caster 1 = 286.875*10= 2868.75 (.675*425*10+32.5*0)
Caster 2 = 354.375*10= 3543.75 (.875*405*10+12.5*0)


In other words, just because of the difference in defense of Dodge and Armor, and how their formulas work, your suggestion pretty much gives Casters an absolute advantage, because Armor's impact is not as large as Dodge's. The current gear gives both casters AND Melee the option to take advantage of the greater stat: Dodge.

 
[*]Mephisto's Thorn - I assure you that you won't slaughter me faster, and currently you can get all the DoT's while still having large nukes. Unless you've forgotten, it takes 25 to get 1 point into MT which then leaves you with 17. This allows you to get everything except for the paralyze and final nuke on the left tree. While, yes that skill does impressive damage you still are able to stack 4 DoT's and cycle through other nukes.  
The key advantage of Death's Cauldron is it does not have a cast time. If you give me 4 Dots PLUS DC, I can easily smack about 1800 damage on you in about 2 seconds, and -320 Bleed on you per second within 4 seconds. On the current skill adjustment, I cannot do that. I can only give around 150-210 degen, in addition to a 700 damage DC.

 
[*]"Unplayable" - Is a strong word, afterall the only thing it would do it make players more focused into DPS rather than doing everything. Currently, you have no "trade-off". It's either ??/11 or ??/19+. The thing it "would" do is make the class more defined in it's roles like other classes.  
There is a major fallacy in what you are claiming here; A full healer will not have any option regarding attack skills given your trees, up until the point where they get their max heal trees.

Also, your skill setup proposal is severely flawed, in that every single skill that benefits an SM is obtainable in one build at final level, with the exception of the self defense buff. You're giving me every buff, every final damage skill, in addition to the important heals, all in one build. A SM doesn't need Healer, Nature's Aspect, Critical Heal or Soul Burn; All the items you put high up in the skill list.

(I also think it's hilarious that you think a 275 defense skill deserves to be at a 20 skill point Tier, when Sorcs have a 450 defense buff at 14, and a 600 defense buff at 18 .....)

 
If "Mana" was a problem, my groups would die more often. Sacrifice and Mana Drain along with potions all cover any "mana issues" I have. That's 500 mana in 1s, the next is more-so to hurt the enemies mana as I only have 1 point into it while still healing 40 of my own. However, this isn't the tread for that Very Happy  
Your group doesn't die because supplemented group buffs make healing easy. Healing solo is a completely different story. An SM can't grind pull-style in dungeon or Emphlant very well without the Defender buff, and have tons of MP problems when their survival purely mounts on them. Mp Maintenance is very different between a group and solo. Group = can slack off, and wait for some MP regen.  



As my tree focuses on support vs DC Razz

Wis is indeed derptastic on a warrior

Again, I never said a number and you're throwing derptastic numbers around for dodge/defense. I said an increase to help the early levels, which of course would make a gap there as well to make up for it. That, and, it is more likely a warrior/paladin will add dex to their stats than any SM/Sorc. Never in my post did I say "increase armor/dodge/mr by 100%". I would debate this more, but if you're going to throw around that I "want" 1k base defense and 750 dodge then I don't need to press this matter further because you clearly lack the understanding of what was stated.

MT - While this is fine and dandy, where you do you 2.8k damage in 2 seconds with 4 DoTs and DC? Each DoT takes 1 second (not including animation causing extra time, which makes it about 1.5s) meaning you won't have 2.8k damage in 2 seconds. Be more realistic with DoT applications :O I don't doubt the damage from a solid crit nuke. However, you still need to apply 3 DoTs (4 if you're lucky, trying to find a situation where I'd stand close enough to let you pbAoE me)


As for the skill layouts, as I said it's not a "final" thing it was a quick maybe 20 second thing in paint as an "example". Also, on a damage build you can currently get every buff (9 point invesment total, afterall you're a DC build) and still get 270 defense from DM. And while you find it funny I move the defense buff higher in the tree, I find it funny you claim a sorc's defense buff is a solid reason we can keep ours at such a low tier. Mind you, we have heals for days while a sorc does not.

Let's also remember it takes only 7 points to get DM and another 11 to get our group defense buff. Bam, level 18 much? Yet we can have a heal for over 1k, a group heal for the same amount, and a crit heal that is even higher than that by level 30. Seems legit Very Happy

Also, I solo grind and also grind in PTs. Not once, have I had mana issues when using mana potions + sacrifice. Well, ok I did one time for this one warrior that decided he was going to pull with weak armor. This caused me to have to crit heal twice, heal once, and use a PT heal for the rest of them because he pulled far to many. However, I wasn't using potions at the time and after I did I was fine on MP. Mana Management is quite easy in this game, the only annoying part is when you use crit heal twice due to mis-click lol.


Either way, as I said this isn't the topic for it so I'm ending it here. The only justified debate you had this entire time was the skill tree layout, while I'd be more than happy to debate this on the proper boards (suggestions) it isn't needed under the producer blog.

deathspinz

Rank 0
Joined
09 Aug 2010
Posts
2
Location
United States
PostedFeb 01, 2013 1:58 am
Hopefully some of events Aeria normally does, doesn't destroy the game like it has for some others but only time will tell

Scalinger2

Rank 0
Scalinger2
Joined
27 Jul 2009
Posts
71
Location
United States
PostedFeb 01, 2013 8:56 am
Okay, I'm here for my input.

--All the stat/text differentiation totally throws me off, accessories say they add a magic dodge stat when they add defense(or armor, forgot which), pally buff adds armor instead of defense, the aegis buff adds armor too instead of def first 100, 375 then 450 i think instead of wat it says on the thing and then I hear the elemental heal is like 3500 at lvl3 when it says something(and lol highfive ih8u at the ice mages that solo bosses)!

Power stones never seemed to help enchanting whatsoever.

Idk what you guys are saying but 1 int for sorc adds 6 mg dmg, this is probably why sorc usually has more magic attack.

--Pertaining to sm's vs. sorc: sm's can heal themselves, the power of 3 poison aoe's is massive(the most and largest aoe's of all class), it's a major hit & run the sorc would only dream of, and they can go defense build while doing this major hit & run damage, so half the time as a fire sorc I feel like a mega-inferior sm.

In pvp the moment I step in I get stunned so bad that I'm never able to move afterwards and just get mauled. The 100% stun percentage and being stunned by melee class form far away is bonkers.

smileybee wrote:

I've been playing Sorceress for the pass few days, and I've noticed that with out the Defense Buff on the Right side of the Skill Tree. Sorceress is rather squishy. New players, who want to make an sorceress, would have a very hard time playing it.
 
I finally got water aegis as a fire tree sorc and whenever I don't buff, the f2 mobs hit me for about 1/7 of my hp every time, after I buff I can tank 5 and kill them all... lol

I would pretty much say fire sorcerer is a late build however, because in the end you can get fire storm, water aegis, and weapon rune all to 3 skill pts, which makes you very powerful in the end, so you really have to hang in there(and Hai Bee xD).

blackdragon214

Rank 1
blackdragon214
Joined
11 Jul 2012
Posts
384
Location
Romania
PostedFeb 01, 2013 9:32 am
well they asking about this and that and for now we can't even play properly, game crashes every day, awesome right ?

Try looking into that place where you dare not look! You will find me there, staring out at you!

Atlas515

Rank 0
Atlas515
Joined
17 Dec 2012
Posts
34
Location
Sheridan United States
PostedFeb 01, 2013 9:40 am

PvP(RvR/Castle Seige/Toggle System) Eos Side

To start off with, I'm not great at analyzing a game, looking at gameplay, or any of the sort. I prefer to have PVE combat. I've always sucked horribly at person vs. person combat in ANY type of game, even online FPS like CoD, or Halo. No matter the case, even from my PVE perspective, and Eos side perspective, it's pretty clear to notice these things:

Guild: In certain standards, it is by far to get my guild Titans to do much of anything because they don't bother to pay attention to the guild chat. Now, it isn't exactly MY guild any longer. I just transferred my leadership over to Haniyasu as it was originally his, I'm the Vice-Leader now. No matter the case, catching guild members attention is truly difficult when the chat is pretty much small, inconspicuous, and unnoticeable in the bottom left corner. I can understand making it translucent when not using it and all of that. But the color schemes used to make the different chats stand out is all that...diverse? I think that's the right word. The guild chat stands out fully. It's in a dark Indigo color, but the rest of them don't quite stand out. General, Region, Class, and Party chat are difficult to discerne colors between them. They can get mixed up easily. Thsi is just one of the small issues I have with the chat system, what I want to implement is a guild notice system that makes itself not only present on the chat, but also present on the shout line for the GM's. Now, it doesn't take place within the GM line, it takes place within a line that is only visible to the members that are apart of that guild. Sort of like a shout line for the guild leader to the entire guild. Just something to catch all of their attention if they're online.

Solo: Now, if there's one thing I've noticed MAJORLY, it would be the solo system. I can fully understand making the NPC mobs stronger to the point where you NEED a party to make it through. That forces you to party up with others, and make friends, so on so forth. But the major issue here is that when you solo, compared to partying, your EXP and Gold gain skyrocket. This gives advantage to anyone who can manage soloing those high level enemies, such as the magic users kiting their way through everything(Duley noting in temple, when there's a mage kiting nearby my FPS drops to 0.50 if not lower). I'm not just focusing on the mages either, I'm a paladin. I can tank quite well, I've decked out my armor pretty well to suit both PVP and PVE combat(not including my weapon). I can tank pretty well when within a party, but by myself, I'm useless...mostly. The key point is that the mobs, as you get higher in level, they get much sstronger, but less in numbers. This still allows for solo, I can fully understand that as people just aren't social sometimes. Reason i say that is because Moogle, the only level 42 in Titans, has soloed her way to level 42 just by being an SM. That woman has my kudos for pulling such a stunt. I could probably do just the same if I tried hard enough. If, and when, I get to emtlant(level 35, but not going anywhere near Emtlant until I finish Temple completely) I can most likely solo he monsters outside of the city, and I'm fairly sure that's not what the devs were looking for. I dropped into the desert for a second or two, they hit pretty hard, but they're spaced out enough so I can take them on one by one, or just avoid them entirely(not adding in the fact that they wander aimlessly around the map). All in all, these two things can pull greatly away from the PVP type style that is looked for in this game.

Realms: Now, I'm going to tackle the issue of the realms. The only surefire way you can keep track of how many people there are in the realms is the Preist Jepher in Ledise(as far as I know, haven't checked anywhere else really), when you're invited to a party because it'll say whether the party leader is Eos or Dione(noting 90% of the parties I have joined, the party leader is Dione), and last but not least, the guild you join because you can only invite people into the guild who are the same faction as the guild leader made it out to be. In my own personal opinion, there's no accurate way to check factions and such. They just aren't all that implemented, nor noticeable. This game has been(is going to) be released as a PVP based game. Well, the issue is that the PVP is lacking in the notoriety department, as are the realms themselves. I recommend an option to inspect characters, and have a guild list available would help out on this greatly. I mean, heck, people get curious, don't they? I think it'd be interesting to be able to inspect someone, instead of asking them to link their items, and tell you their stats all the time when you can just simply right click on their toon and inspect it(invasion of privacy is not an issue, I'm sure most of you like to show off anyways). As for the guild list, well, the only guilds I know of are the ones that I have in memory. There should be a guild list implemented into the game so that you can see what competition you really have, and who you're going to be fighting against, or who your allies are. I've been in the dark on what all guilds have been made so far, what levels they're at, and how powerful they are.

PvP:
Subtopic:
RvR: RvR in itself is pretty dang fun, yes, I die a lot. I'm Eos, what else would you expect when Dione is the dominating force on this game? xD Nonetheless, I do not mind dying by Diones hands at all. And even though I die, I still get BP for doing assists to other Eos players, or even straight up killing a Dione. The only issue is that both factions have access to the entire Ruemon PVP area which allows for camping on bridges. A simple way to fix this is that the four bridges that lead into Ruemon should be locked off according to factions(two bridges for Eos, two for Dione). That way, the camping issue is solved by make the center peice the battle area. And I totally understand that you'll say, "But it'll get cramped and unspacious in the center peice!" That's easily fixed as well, have you seen the lake that Ruemon sits over? Have you seen how long and huge those pylons are? Modify the center peice to have a larger area so it isn't so cramped, but still accessible by the bridges.

Castle Seige: Now, I've only participated in one castle seige so far, I missed my second one because I was late on registration. I can't say much here, because my two cents of thought don't have the experience. But just like the realms, Castle Seige has no notoriety whatsoever. The reason I had missed my registration for my second Castle Seige(namely Baston Castle), was because I had to have been informed by a friend that it was happening soon. I had gathered up quite the force for that Castle Seige, but by the time I had got there, registrations were already done. Absolutely NOTHING said that a castle seige was happening that day, and I had just barely missed it. As for the castle seige i had participated in, that was halland Castle. That in itself, I sucked...majorly. I had only two guild members with me, but it was still fun. Just...once again, that day I had to have been notified by a friend that there was a castle seige.

Toggle PVP: Now, I am just as guilty as anyone else for not using this. But I have tried it a FEW times, one of which, I was really angry and wanted to kill the SM who had stolen my spectral knight from me on a daily quest. xD But yes, thinking this toggle system over, I can understand entirely why you would toggle it. People get pissed off if you just randomly walk up to them and kill them when they're almost done with a quest. It's just straight out rude, I would be angry. But in turn, I would want to kill them next time I see them. I don't have much for this either, so I probably don't have any right to speak. But it is used for friendly duels between each other, and that I can admire because such a system like this promotes healthy PVP battles and removes the grudges and animosity between characters. Even so, it's still pretty useless because of the consequences of dying. A double or nothing system should be set up within the PVP of this game. Now, I'm not saying you lose EVERYTHING when you die, dear god no. That would just be purely horrible for PVP, what I'm saying is that you get the same consequences, or switch the EXP loss to gold or BP, but instead, if you win, the loser drops a random set of items on the ground that the winner can pick up. that in itself, that's a double or nothing type system.

Aeria.North

Aeria: Product Manager
Aeria.North
Joined
18 Jul 2011
Posts
451
Location
Ledise, Litos United States
PostedFeb 02, 2013 5:06 am
Thanks for all of the replies Knights!

I wanted to personally apologize for the issues we've had this week. This is an open beta and some issues have arisen that we originally thought would not cause any problems. This is causing the long patching times and disconnects that many of you have experienced. We hope to have this resolved very soon and will provide you with an update.

North

katsifos

Rank 0
katsifos
Joined
18 Mar 2011
Posts
165
Location
Greece
PostedFeb 02, 2013 6:06 am

PVE

Well it is a nice game but i woud love to see some pve in it didnt go far in it still lvl 15 but i think it coud be a dungeon instance whatever so far to party up and have some pve fun, also i think shoud be some end game instances or even, raids with a small amount of ppl like 8 or 10 wich is gonna give a sweet pve touch in the game, never liked a hardcore pve game like raid with 40 or 25 ppl but i guess a 10 man dungeon or party instances will be lot of fun, also ppl will go some pve building, there shoud be a method also swaping from a skill build to another so ppl can both pve and swap to pvp build to pvp. Co-op pve is rly fun if it is to be pure pvp in high-end game it can be rly borring. Smile
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