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gabotheplaya

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PostedJan 02, 2013 12:40 am

COMPARISON (LO vs RO)

the nitty gritty of being called a "spiritual successor" of Ragnarok Online
Intros first...

I'm gabotheplaya, this has been my name in many many games, a majority of which are PC online games, and a majority of those are RO private servers. I almost always exclusively run Royal Guards, tank mastery to the max and killing everyone with sacrifice.

I got to this forums because: (1) i was severely disappointed with the RO2 reviews and how it ripped out the good RO mechanics while keeping the name for a quick nostalgia pull and (2) i googled "spiritual successor of Ragnarok Online".

For reference, some good examples of spiritual succession that i know of are:
Demon Souls to Dark Souls, StarCraft to StarCraft 2, DotA to DotA 2, Street fighter to SSF4
Disagree as you may, kindly explain as to why you disagree.

For easier responses, i will break key mechanics into parts and replies should be done numerically for easier reference:

1. Classes:
1.1 what happened to the merchant and archer class? or in MMO terms, the money-instead-of-mana weaponmaster-ish class and the non-magic ranged classes?
1.2 hybrid roles are possible (based on skill trees) but are hybrid classes possible? ie. magic casting sword user? healing thief? stealthy magic?
1.3 Will races have bonuses/racial skills? charzooka!
1.4 advancing one's job class? no, not novice to swordsman. i mean swordsman to knight/crusader. novicedom is an experience easily cut out from the game.

2. Combat
2.1 targeting system that attacks only the selected unit vs. collision-based skillshots? judging from the interface, its the previous but i've seen differences that affect things like optimal distance and aoe rings that gives different dynamics.
2.2 elements? fire > earth > wind > water > fire, holy > dark/undead, ghost > neutral, etc. elemental armors were fuuun!
2.3 Status ailments? a freeze build is viable while a push back strategy is harder to counter while stun can punish low vits while poison punishes high vit/regen.
2.4 Attackspeed, lucky dodge, cast speed, block rate, condition resistance, and other such secondary combat values in-game? aspd is more important in non-skill mashing games which this could be with the whole "low cooldowns" description
2.5 weapon classes? a dagger attacks faster but is weaker than an axe, spear has a bit more range, some skills only work with X weapon, etc.
2.6 move speed? are there move speed conditions like knights being able to ride pecos and taekwon being able to jump?
2.7 monster elemental attunement (which seems to be in-game) with corresponding skills, like agriopes poisoning the ground as opposed to just having a poison-based attack?

3. Items
3.1 Will the cards have varied effects? GTB has a unique effect while thara is a staple for PvP while there are others that just pump stats? i'm hoping for varied card effects and not pure stat pumping like gems/runes in other games.
3.2 Combos? because owl duke + owl baron and armor charm + padded is fun.

4. Others
4.1 persistent world vs "warps portals"?
4.2 how much of the game is instanced? endless tower is an instance done right, but if the whole game is instanced then it kind of kills the mmorpg-ness.

If i ever have to update this thread with more questions, i will number them differently to maintain the numbering order.

Thank you!
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Picchuu

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PostedJan 02, 2013 5:24 am
1.1: There is a Hunter class (as well as a Doll Master and Musician) that have been teased in concept art, but haven't been implemented yet. It looks like they are going to be implemented though, or at least Doll Master will, from a doll shop that is found in Blue Coral.

1.2: No. Each base class does go into differently specialized advanced classes (think Aion, except there's two more advancements (although you still stay on the same skill tree line) after the initial split though.

1.3: The revamped version does have racial skills (although I don't know how this relates to RO because there was only one playable race), the skills are as follows (credit going to Blue for looking through Inven and the KR CB):
Humans

- Mysterious blessing (Buff): Increase HP(?) for self and party.
- Forgotten talents (Passive?): Increase damage.
- Adventurer constitution (Passive): Increase physical and magic attack.

Turga

- Khan subparagraph(?) (Buff): Increase HP(?) for self and party
- Khan's bravery (Passive): Increase defense.
- Khan's pride (Passive): Increases attack.

Muris

- A tireless Brat (Buff): MP restoration for a certain period of time (self and party)
- Circulation (Passive): Max MP increase.
- Play jump (Passive): Speed increased.

1.4: See 1.2.


2.1: The game is tab targeting, but AFAIK, there are AOE skills that you can aim.

2.2: There are different elements as far as attacking. The mage can specialize into either a Dark element user or a Fire/Ice/Wind element user. And healers and their specializations can use the Holy element.

2.3: I don't really remember them in alpha, and obviously the huge revamp could have changed this.

2.4: Yes, they're stats in the game.

2.5: There's a couple of different weapons each class can use, depending on what they specialize into, and yes some skills will require X type of weapon, unless they changed that. Warriors can use 1h/shield or 2h, Thieves can use daggers or 1h, and one tree also gets a dual wield passive, Mages can use staves or grimoires, and healers can use Maces, staves, or grimoires.

2.6: There's mounts, yes. And healers may or may not get a movement speed buff skill.

2.7: All that was in alpha was elemental attacks, unless I missed something. But obviously that could possibly have changed with the revamp, so until we're able to play the new version, it's up in the air.


3.1: It looks like just stats from what's been seen so far.

3.2: If those names you mentioned were skills, possibly, if they were cards, they haven't shown it yet.


4.1: There are different zones and loading screens, and I'm very sorry if those scare you. But it's open world, not dungeon based ie. Dragon Nest or C9, although there are instanced dungeons at different levels like in Aion or WoW.

4.2: See 4.1. Again, I'm very sorry if loading screens scare you.

I make no Rupaulogies.

MeiuAngel

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PostedJan 02, 2013 5:32 am
Do bear in mind that Lime has gone under a massive overhaul since our Alpha, and a lot of us were unable to get into the Korean Closed Beta of the game, so we only have a vague idea of what's changed. But I can give you some answers from my experience of the Alpha test ^^
(I reccommend you check out Lime Paradise, they have a loooot of info.)

Just to add to what Picchuu said - There are warp portals, but the maps are SO huge you won't be using them much. You get from level 1-23/24 on one map (if you're a human) before needing to go elsewhere. The only real instances are dungeons. And some dungeons aren't even instanced xD For an idea, the first instance I came across was a dungeon at about level 25ish. Everything before that was in the open world.

Vandread25

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PostedJan 02, 2013 6:13 am
Yes! racial skill! That's what I'm waiting for. Glad they have now some specific skill/stats for each races so that you can differentiate them even when they are the same class, races are not just aesthetics anymore. Smile

I have read that they fixed the armor bug and melee not dealing sufficient damage compared to range ones.
LO just keeps getting better, can't wait for OBT!

gabotheplaya

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PostedJan 02, 2013 8:24 am
OP here.

Please don't mistake this as an X > Y thing, i'm getting a feel for this game before i recommend it to all my friends. (i have a backstory involving RO2, but lets not digress) I am an experienced beta tester and i know well enough that alpha can change things up a lot, just wanted to test the waters since i shot down RO2 so badly from what i got in the forums that my friends decided not to play it in the end.

Let this be a disclaimer: same as Ragnarok Online doesn't mean its gonna be a good game... just comparing some mechanics that i am very much concerned about.

thank you Picchuu for the reply! that's the kind i want and i'd like to comment on it from what i'd like to see.

1.1 [+1] sounds like there's "a different kind of playstyle" from the knight/tank, thief/dps, cleric/support, mage/mdps.
1.2 [-1] was hoping to see less predictable characters and multiclassing or at least the ability to level a few skills from a different tree would have helped spice things up a bit. its also getting pretty common in recent games, so there's that "they chose not to put it in" statement there which some, like myself, might look down upon. not in RO, but a good feature nonetheless.
1.3 [0] i'm actually neutral on this. this has been one of the most difficult balance issue in many games. i'd hate to see everyone of X class be of Y race... or worse, everyone hops on to Y race because it has the most useful stuff. i'd like difference, but balance takes priority.
1.4 i think you missed this one, its literally just changing jobs, possibly getting a "stronger" look and access to a higher tier skill tree which almost always outclasses the earlier tier. splitting between two jobs a la knight vs. crusader would also compliment the customization factor.

2.1 [0] would have been "getting with the times" to make it action/collision-based but i have to test it before i can say its not good. for all i know it might match the game better.
2.2 [?] good to know, but i'm more concerned for elemental superiority. the whole water sword beats fire armor thing. i've seen it done too often that "does fire damage" just gives additional damage and maybe a slight burning effect which ultimately is just more dps in disguise. do these elements affect each other? is holy element good against undead/dark types?
2.3 i would love to see status effects. the more and varied the better... also, DoTs don't count unless they impede regen or something. status ailments must mess with your ability to do things as effectively as before and must be somehow counter-able if you sacrifice enough for it (like cards and armor slots?)
2.4 [+5] that's great! i've seen a pic with aspd of 1000 and it gave me hope. these secondary values realy do add depth to the game. plus mixing in some auto-attack with skills makes the game feel a lot less like button-mash-fest.
2.5 [+2] also great! would be nice to have more "technical" builds though like when i'd rather go fast knife[4] with my royal guard instead of a pike[4] (excluding the BG spear though that's badass) which wouldn't be possible if you restrict weapons too much. speedy SinX dual-wielding a sword and an axe? heck yeah!
2.6 [+1] should have been more specific though... boosts like agi up count but a general "ability to modify character move speed" is what i mean, a royal guard's grand peco is not just a mount, its basically a passive skill that increases move speed and carry weight. Sleipnir and moonlight card come to mind. basically move speed is another stat you can boost.
2.7 this is a pretty standard thing across the board for current-gen games... bosses with skills. hopefully they don't skip it. elemental attacks also only count if [see 2.2]

3.1 [-5] NOOOOOOOOOOO! please don't be lame str+3 vit+3 cards! i want ruwach! i want +20% damage to demihuman! i want chance to autocast fireball! i want the ability to see invisible guys walking around without them noticing! i want diverse stuff like that!
3.2 [-1] owl duke + owl baron are combo cards which give additional bonuses when equipped together. some fancy stuff happen when you get a whole "soldier set" of cards for easy hunting... but then you lose out on some other useful cards... oh the diversity!

4.1 [+1] i like the warps! read the first post again, warps are nice. its easier on the pc and better for intense battles because there's a lot less to render. a few instance dungeons are nice, but a hub-and-warps game kind of kills the whole "explore the world" part of the game since its live visiting room 1, then room 2, then room c, etc. without getting anywhere really.
4.2 [+1] few instances! pre-rendered maps prevent slow-downs!

all in all, i'm still not convinced... i'm liking what i'm seeing mostly, but i might have to play the cbt first.

anybody else wants to try their hand at answering the questions in the OP?

mackyfer

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PostedJan 02, 2013 8:49 am
@gabotheplaya I agree with you man I would love these things for LO cuz RO2 pretty much skipped all the stuff that made RO1 awesome. Sadly they claimed that MMO of today don't use that play style no more. My favourites are the element and racial damage bonuses from cards or gears (Infiltrator FTW!). I seem too me developers just want to make simpler games and are failing to understand their gamers..seriously...

I played alpha and it was ok...I wish players could manually distribute stats but that was out and kinda disappointing. The elemental damage is crap...added damage; not fire > earth like in RO (I hope they change this) and cards are just added stats not very dynamic. Gone are the days to thara card on ur shield lol. To this day, RO1 imo has one of the best battle system for both pvp and pve..even if a lil imbalanced, it allows player to be different and that is very important.

Picchuu

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PostedJan 02, 2013 8:58 am
To the ones you put negative or 0 or ?:

1.2: There's still skill tress in the game, so if they vary enough within each tree, I guess you could have different mini-classes within a class. They allowed cross tree stuff in the 1st version, and from what I experienced, you were kinda gimped if you did it. (biggest example being cleric, you needed to put points into the dps tree if you wanted to be able to do anything without at least duoing)

1.3: I agree. I've heard horror stories from games that had too much of this, like FFXI. Players would be excluded from doing stuff, no matter how skilled they were, if they weren't the "right" race for their job.

1.4: I did answer that, and it does split at 15. Then it continues down whichever line you chose, but it doesn't split again after 15.

2.1: I feel that it's fine that they did that, since it's not being billed first and foremost as a cutting edge combat game. I feel like it's more of a "fantasy life" game, but less hardcore in that than say, Mabinogi.

2.2: Now that I think on it, I do remember something about elemental strengths and weaknesses. We'll have to see what's been done though, since the revamp. And someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong.

2.5: Just wanted to note that there are no axes in the game.

2.6: Also just noting, there's titles in LO, so at least one will most likely have movespeed in it.

3.1: First one sounds like a random ability on a weapon, second and third ones sound like passive skills. But again, we'll just have to wait and see what they do. Again, it just doesn't sound like those card effects would fit in the game, since from what people have said, it sounds like RO was a monster hunting game, and LO again, seems to be more "fantasy life".

3.2: Since you will be able to equip multiple cards on a piece of equipment, they may have that, but they haven't shown anything like that.


I'm just saying, LO may be the spiritual successor to RO and it does show, but I think you should also look at it as its own game. And this is just my own opinion, and I'm also not saying that these things could never be implemented, depending on what people in the different versions want (and I do feel that Cykan will owe us at least a few more suggestions taken, since Goldensoft and Aeria have stuck with it through the downtime).

qawsar

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PostedJan 02, 2013 9:37 am   Last edited by qawsar on Jan 02, 2013 10:14 am. Edited 2 times in total
There were some massive changes after the revamp, so I'll give a poke at the questions too, Picchuu pretty much has them answered so I'll only answer the things that were changed.

1.2 All the base classes (Cleric / Warrior / Mage / Thief, including future classes such as DollMaster, etc) have "Universal Skills". These "Universal Skills" can always be learnt and advanced even if you pick a different advanced class in the future. Infact as you level you come across new Universal Skills up to level 60 (since that is the cap), besides that you have talent/skill tree's gained for every job advancement, and you get one every 15 levels. A mix of Universal Skills, and not having enough skill points to max every single skill in all the tree's allows for huge hybridization and unique builds.

1.4 Here's the chart, there's different advances for even you're life class, keep in mind some battle classes are restricted to some races, humans can play everything.





2.3 Yes there were a couple of status ailments, i.e debuffs

2.4 There are a whole load of stats


2.5 Yes, in fact it seems like a couple of weapons were added in KR LO including axes that affect speed/damage, classes have passives that can also effect the weapon, including speed, heal rate, damage, etc etc.

3.1 It seemed like there was something more than just stat additions, you may also combine cards now and do a couple more things with multiple cards.

4.1 Every continent (which consists of around 4+ maps) is Open World. To travel between continents there is a short loading screen. You can even travel by boat/sea mounts on some continents to get to other parts of the continent (i.e Aria Island). But pretty much every map in a continent is connected by such things as bridges and caves, and not loading screens. There are even open instance dungeons where you don't have to be in a party and can see other players and even create parties in there.

ColdB26

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PostedJan 02, 2013 10:04 am
And the questing system? You can interact with objects and NPCs exclusively during some?
Is possible unlock locations, special (and secret) NPC services or summon bosses through quests? And about the story quests, there will be multiple choices that will lead to different paths?

In my opinion these are things that make RO a better MMORPG than others, even the newest...

Flying pigs took my signature away~

qawsar

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PostedJan 02, 2013 10:10 am
ColdB26 wrote:
And the questing system? You can interact with objects and NPCs exclusively during some?
Is possible unlock locations, special (and secret) NPC services or summon bosses through quests? And about the story quests, there will be multiple choices that will lead to different paths?

In my opinion these are things that make RO a better MMORPG than others, even the newest...  


1. Yes you can interact with objects and NPC's exclusively during quests, they can even summon bosses, groups of mobs, or even a mix of them both, I don't know about NPC services and special areas yet.
2. I'm not sure about multiple choices leading to different paths, probably not but it's a possibility.
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