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Millumi

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Millumi
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PostedNov 24, 2012 6:54 pm

How does this stuff work?

Basically, this topic is about what we want information on, what the game doesn't tell you, but you could possibly find out with experimenting in game.

Obviously, we should discuss the hidden stats:
P-healing
G-healing
Malice

But if you can think of other topics, it would be nice to contribute.
Here is one I have:
Rates against monsters of a different level
(Crit Rate, M-Crit Rate, Acc, eva, defense, parry, block)
All these stats say "of the same level" monsters, but what about lower level monsters, is there a way to calculate it against lower or higher monsters? Finally, is the cap higher against low level monsters? (I think it might be for some of them, obviously not crit/mcrit, but evasion could be, because that would explain why monster arena weapons give you over 100% accuracy)

Here is another:
How does the attack speed on a weapon work(right of p-attack) with 2 1 handed weapons?
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katashi65

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katashi65
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PostedNov 24, 2012 9:13 pm   Last edited by katashi65 on Nov 24, 2012 9:38 pm. Edited 3 times in total

Re: How does this stuff work?

Millumi wrote:
Basically, this topic is about what we want information on, what the game doesn't tell you, but you could possibly find out with experimenting in game.

Obviously, we should discuss the hidden stats:
P-healing
G-healing
Malice

But if you can think of other topics, it would be nice to contribute.
Here is one I have:
Rates against monsters of a different level
(Crit Rate, M-Crit Rate, Acc, eva, defense, parry, block)
All these stats say "of the same level" monsters, but what about lower level monsters, is there a way to calculate it against lower or higher monsters? Finally, is the cap higher against low level monsters? (I think it might be for some of them, obviously not crit/mcrit, but evasion could be, because that would explain why monster arena weapons give you over 100% accuracy)

Here is another:
How does the attack speed on a weapon work(right of p-attack) with 2 1 handed weapons?  


Healing

I've heard that an outgoing heal takes into account:

Base power of the skill + User's Wisdom + User's G-Healing + Receiver's Wisdom + Receiver's P-Healing = Heal Strength

I've also heard that Wisdom's effectiveness is proportional to some ratio of P-Healing : G-Healing. This begs the question as to whether or not Wisdom actually directly modifies the P-Healing and G-Healing values in the above equation (if it is accurate at all). The ratio of Wisdom : P-Healing and Wisdom : G-Healing, if the theory is true, is unknown, but some have experimentally found stacking G-Healing to be more effective than Wisdom for outgoing heals to others. This would mean that Wisdom/G-Healing < 1, and it would make sense. There would be no point to stacking G-Healing if it was equally as effective to outgoing heals as the same amount of Wisdom. This is all guesswork on my part, but I had a lot of time to ponder this on the Metro coming home from school, and I worked out a full experiment in my head to find out how to isolate these variables. More on that when I find a friend willing to take damage and watch me heal him for several hours straight.

*******************************************************************

Malice

Malice seems to work with numbers in the range of hundreds since Declaration of Anger seems to mean the difference between me holding aggro and losing aggro sometimes. It is also said that elemental damage added on your attacks each apply the bonus aggro of this buff for each additional stack you have per attack. Provokes seem to have an additional small hit after its real damage to help secure aggro in a way similar to this. And of course, dealing more damage results in more generation of aggro. How much damage it takes to outweigh "Malice" increasing effects from skills such as Knight's Judgement Storm or Templar's Judgement Impact is unknown. It is also unknown if leveling the skill increases the amount of aggro increased aside from higher damage, or if it is a static boost to aggro. It is unknown whether Provokes work on the basis of temporarily spiking the user's aggro or if it is an automatic shift to the user and/or resets aggro. For all we know, it could lower everybody else's generated aggro. Having the taunt effect on the enemy doesn't guarantee that the enemy will keep its attention on you, and aggro can be stolen by another player immediately after the enemy is taunted. Healing also generates aggro, whether on the same scale as damage dealt is unknown, but I personally think this is likely to be true since the amount you heal is displayed by the same system message as the damage you deal.

*******************************************************************

Crit Rate, M-Crit Rate, Block, and Parry

Crit Rate and M-Crit Rate are independent of level. This is a typo. I would assume that Parry and Block work in a similar fashion, but cannot be guaranteed since they cannot cap at 100%. It only takes several hundred points of Crit Rate to cap 100% at level 1. Against those beginner Mushroids in Limestone Mountain, I lowered my Crit Rate to about 50% for a level 65 player (this was an older test) and started slashing at them. Compared to those mobs, I should have had well over the requirement for 100% Crit Rate. I didn't Crit 100% of the time, therefore the mechanic is not level dependent and this can be concluded after a single Trial: if a non-Crit can occur, then this statement is false. However, due to chance, I could have 50% Block and take hits from these level 1 mobs and come out with false results due to probability. This requires a far more involved experiment that involves me standing around being attacked for ages while I collect data for huge sample sizes and multiple trials of said sample sizes. And the kicker is that I can only be *probably sure* that Block isn't level dependent, not 100% sure that this is true. Who knows, maybe I could've scored big with Eden Crystals instead of experiencing an anomaly of chance testing out the Block mechanic with level as a variable. I'll let somebody else test this for Parry since I'm too poor to pay for repairs or buy the currently available Orange one from the Silver Needles.

*******************************************************************

Defense

Defense works based on the number itself and not the % you see. That % displayed provides information on your defense against others of the same level only. Your defense stat is scaled from the perspective of the attacker. Assume you are at a higher level than your opponent. Your % of damage reduction is based on what your defense number would be were you at the same level as your opponent. For example, you are level 70 with 15k defense and a level 20 monster is attacking you. The % of damage reduction can't be higher than the defense cap (currently 70%), so you'd effectively have a 70% damage reduction from the incoming damage of that monster. If a level 70 monster was attacking you, you'd have closer to 50%-ish damage reduction since the attacker's perspective has changed to that which applies the level 70 defense requirement. I have heard that level itself influences how much damage is dealt, all other stats held constant, but have seen no reason to believe this yet. It's probably that this assumption was made comparing the % of damage reduction instead of the raw number and further complicated by the reaching the defense cap (then 50%) on the part of the lower leveled player. I should probably test this, too, but experiments may be delayed due to needing collaboration. I do not know what Crit Damage reduction caps at, but I would guess at it being the same as regular defense (70%).

*******************************************************************

Evasion and Accuracy

I have no idea how Evasion and Accuracy work even against same level foes. I just know how it doesn't work: 100% Eva doesn't mean you dodge 100% of the time, and 0% Accuracy won't mean that you'll always miss. I have heard that Stun reduces Evasion to 0, but I don't know if that means that you can never dodge since 0 Accuracy still allows you to hit sometimes. I also don't know if Stun actually reduces the stat (whether in a way that can be seen on the Character page or not) or if it just guarantees that incoming attacks will always hit. I have also heard that Knockdown does a similar thing. Damage over time skills do not seem to be affected by Accuracy, and, thankfully, neither do incoming heal skills and buffs, etc.

My last comment on Evasion and Accuracy is that these stats always troll. Just do your best to raise them both and hope you dodge/hit your opponents when you need to.

*******************************************************************

Attack Speed

I can't say this with perfect accuracy since my kinetic vision isn't too great, but I feel like Attack Speed is scaled with the main hand weapon. I *think* I hit faster with a Dagger main hand and a Club offhand than a Club main hand and a Dagger offhand. I tested this with my Thief against that boss mob close to Guillotine in Death Valley. I also tried switching from Club main hand and Dagger offhand to Rapier main hand and Dagger offhand, and this clearly increased the rate of my autoattack animations. I neglected to test whether changing only the offhand weapon affects Attack Speed since I was already under the assumption that it follows the main hand weapon. On the other hand (pun intended) P-Atk and M-Atk are caclulated in such a way that a main hand weapon increases these stats roughly 3 times more than the offhand does, so I do not know whether this or some other similar mechanic is applied to Attack Speed. However, I do believe that at upper levels, this does not matter so much since the more Attack Speed is modified, the smaller the difference between base weapon Attack Speeds matter, similar to how base Cast Times for skills see less of a difference at higher Cast Speeds until finally reaching instacast with no Cast time at all. I hear that Attack Speed makes no more difference past about 70% increase and have also heard that 100% is the cap; neither has been proven to me, but it is difficult to do so anyway. I'll try to see what I can do about this using a lower leveled character.

Millumi

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Millumi
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PostedNov 24, 2012 9:18 pm

Re: How does this stuff work?

katashi65 wrote:

Crit Rate, M-Crit Rate, Block, and Parry

Crit Rate and M-Crit Rate are independent of level. This is a typo.  

Not a typo, look at the class stat description.
I found it surprising too.

katashi65

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PostedNov 24, 2012 9:22 pm

Re: How does this stuff work?

Millumi wrote:
katashi65 wrote:

Crit Rate, M-Crit Rate, Block, and Parry

Crit Rate and M-Crit Rate are independent of level. This is a typo.  

Not a typo, look at the class stat description.
I found it surprising too.  



I mean I looked at it. Tested it. It's false, and therefore a typo. katashi senses some copypasta in the code for where this text was placed for stat descriptions.

katashi65

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PostedNov 24, 2012 9:36 pm
Sorry for the wall of text. It's just my style when I find something interesting to respond to.

I tried to divide it, sort of, into smaller sections.

Millumi

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Millumi
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PostedNov 24, 2012 9:44 pm

Re: How does this stuff work?

katashi65 wrote:
Millumi wrote:
katashi65 wrote:

Crit Rate, M-Crit Rate, Block, and Parry

Crit Rate and M-Crit Rate are independent of level. This is a typo.  

Not a typo, look at the class stat description.
I found it surprising too.  



I mean I looked at it. Tested it. It's false, and therefore a typo. katashi senses some copypasta in the code for where this text was placed for stat descriptions.  

Well, I would think it made sense, since it's a rate, and the actual rates do change when you level up, so it being different against lower level monsters might make sense. How exactly did you test it?



 
Malice

Malice seems to work with numbers in the range of hundreds since Declaration of Anger seems to mean the difference between me holding aggro and losing aggro sometimes. It is also said that elemental damage added on your attacks each apply the bonus aggro of this buff for each additional stack you have per attack  

I remember that. I had the idea and someone else tested it with a friend and cleric's life cure. I did some testing of my own and found that the elemental damage bonuses can also stack malice decreasing buffs, such as ranger's luck buff and snub.
I tried using elemental damages to get aggro when tanking myself, it didn't seem to make much of a difference.
Though I think using elemental damages might be a good way to try testing the actual helpfulness of malice.

katashi65

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katashi65
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PostedNov 24, 2012 9:50 pm

Re: How does this stuff work?

Millumi wrote:
katashi65 wrote:
Millumi wrote:
katashi65 wrote:

Crit Rate, M-Crit Rate, Block, and Parry

Crit Rate and M-Crit Rate are independent of level. This is a typo.  

Not a typo, look at the class stat description.
I found it surprising too.  



I mean I looked at it. Tested it. It's false, and therefore a typo. katashi senses some copypasta in the code for where this text was placed for stat descriptions.  

Well, I would think it made sense, since it's a rate, and the actual rates do change when you level up, so it being different against lower level monsters might make sense. How exactly did you test it?



 
Malice

Malice seems to work with numbers in the range of hundreds since Declaration of Anger seems to mean the difference between me holding aggro and losing aggro sometimes. It is also said that elemental damage added on your attacks each apply the bonus aggro of this buff for each additional stack you have per attack  

I remember that. I had the idea and someone else tested it with a friend and cleric's life cure. I did some testing of my own and found that the elemental damage bonuses can also stack malice decreasing buffs, such as ranger's luck buff and snub.
I tried using elemental damages to get aggro when tanking myself, it didn't seem to make much of a difference.  




First I found out by buffing new players in Limestone Mountain to 100% Crit Rate/M-Crit Rate using Cleric and Shaman. About 400 points of Crit Rate capped them off at 100%, and I sadistically ordered them to duel each other, always scoring Crits against each other.

Amused, I lowered my own Crit Rate to about 1.2k-1.4k Crit Rate (which should be well over 100% from the Mushroid's perspectives in Limestone Mountain) and proceeded to attack them. If I scored a single non-Crit attack, this would undoubtedly prove that Crit Rate is from the attacker's perspective, not the defender. Indeed, I did not always score Crits on the Mushroids, so my Crit Rate against them did not increase to 100% as would be expected if Crit Rate scaled to the defender's perspective. This goes hand in hand with my theory about how Defense is applied from the attacker's perspective as well.

Millumi

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Millumi
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PostedNov 24, 2012 10:06 pm
We could probably make whole topics discussing how any of this crap works. Is there anything not listed that you wish you could know more about but the game doesn't tell you?

katashi65

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PostedNov 24, 2012 10:09 pm
Millumi wrote:
We could probably make whole topics discussing how any of this crap works. Is there anything not listed that you wish you could know more about but the game doesn't tell you?  



I really, really want to know how to calculate P-Atk. You know, from your weapons, Str, etc.

Millumi

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Millumi
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PostedNov 24, 2012 10:29 pm
Yeah, the actual damage varies within some range, it would be really nice if they could tell you what it was.



For malice, I can't help but wonder if it's more complex than we might think. Like, if malice increases work differently for different amounts of damage. I wonder, during a crit, would the malice buff's increase also increase?
It might be testable if you use two elemental damage equips with different amounts of damage and switch doing the test with life cure.

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