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Element.Ag

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Element.Ag
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PostedJan 31, 2013 10:08 am
Reply to Section 2: I already mentioned that it's not always possible to have 100% fairness. For example, professional sports teams deal with player injury. However, the variables that can be manipulated are structured to foster fairness . The dragon does not provide fairness unless the winning team is guaranteed to receive it if the losing team does.

The concept of deeming a winner and loser under the most fair circumstances is the embodiment of competition. This competition is what fuels the fun that people have. The vast majority of games created emphasize triumph over another or even oneself.

Love and war are not relevant to this debate. War definitely has more important issues outside of winning and losing. The same can be said for love on a much, much lower scale. Please stick to using games or something comparable as an example.

About the analogy. I see what you mean and I'll partially agree with you here. I'll revise what I say then. Instead of saying a definite double, I'll say "additional players that at times can reach double." At times a dragon can double a team's effectiveness, but I'll concede that it can't do that all of the time.

Reply to Section 3: Ok, well you actually could be correct about that. If I could choose my team I probably would care as much because I would select people who knew what they were doing and had the proper class advantages to mitigate the problem. I wouldn't agree with the mechanic but I would deem it more acceptable.

But... team join was removed. As per GM Mokona, the EN version is the only version that had issues with "stacking." Since that mechanic is gone, it has removed the ability of mitigating the dragon problem via preparation. Since team join is never coming back, that is more of an argument to remove the dragon to create a fair playing field.

You could argue that the dragon would be needed against five man team stacks, but now it's random versus random. Random team versus random team in a 5-on-5 with no outside help is the most ideal way to structure the game in its fairest possible way.

Also, what does the "think like a team" aspect have to do with anything? LeBron James always passed the ball to teammates and ranked among the top of the NBA in assists. When he left his team fell to dead last in the conference. I'm stating that a team is the sum of its parts whether they be equal or not. If a team is better because of one superstar, it is still a better team.

Reply to section 4:
Point 1 & 2: Fair enough, I don't think we should waste anymore space debating on these.

Point 3:
First: The first wasn't really an argument. It was more of a disclaimer. I was in a way depersonalizing myself from the argument since I used myself as an example.

Second: Perhaps. But still explain why the losing team deserves a dragon in the name of fairness. Explain why effort sufficient to secure a lead deserves to have a chance to be ruined by a comeback mechanic.

Third: I disagree with you completely. The strong win and the weak lose. You reap what you sow. You only receive reward proportionate to the time, money, and effort you put in. It took a while but I made sure I at least had +10 equips and knowledge of my class before even touching PVP. After that, I still died. A lot. But by being crushed repeatedly, I learned and became stronger. If people can't fathom losing to get better, then the only thing that would grow is a community of entitled rage quitters.

I find the PC comment very funny since it implies I enjoy bullying others. I've been crushed repeatedly and I never complained. If I lose a crushing loss I accept it as long as it is fair. I then adapt, learn new strategies, and become a better player. That's the mentality players should have.

Last: So you're stating it's okay that it exists because it doesn't happen in the vast majority of games that you're in? Because that's a good way to have the few even matches you find ruined by the dragon mechanic.

Point 4: I'm sincerely happy you've never experienced that. I do however know this happens. In the most recent instance my lover was on the opposing team and she clearly told me what they were doing. They were freely discussing it in party chat and she relayed that information directly to me. I really don't want to have to begin recording my matches to prove that this happens.

Point 5: Redundant. No need to address since we've already addressed each other at previous points.

Reply to Section 5:
Point 1: Your section two still fails to explain how the mechanic is fair.

Point 2: Still two totally different genres. Even if your comparison was valid, I still fight other level 70s. If both of us are the same level then neither should have a difficulty higher than the other. What really kills this point is its easier to fight people who are underleveled and undergeared. If that were not the case there would be no point in improving your character.

This is still a completely irrelevant and invalid argument. Please stick to the relevant genre of games for examples.

Point 4: That's not the correct context of the definition. (Check definition 2, under verb)
2 : to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/exploit

The key word is "unfairly." No form of exploitation is acceptable because it is unfair and considered a cheat.

Under the correct context of the definition others are hurt by the use of the dragon. Also, no I didn't exploit anyone or anything to become what I am under the context of the definition in question.


Conclusion: You have still yet to provide valid rebuttals proving the fairness of the mechanic. I have provided many examples of how it confounds fair gameplay. As such I feel it is a valid conclusion to call for the removal of the dragon.
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KurysFlame

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PostedFeb 01, 2013 12:55 am
Reply to Section 2: The only real issue I see with the dragon is when the opposing team actively tries to create a situation where they get the dragon while you don't, or vice versa if that be the case. I still don't see it as a reason to dump the dragon, but to fix this one issue.

It is true that most any competition is to find a winner and loser, and this is where the fun is derived from, but the end goal is fun, or at least should be in my opinion. Who would play GF or any other online game if it were not fun? HF is not apart of the olympics and is not a professional sports team. As the goal is to have fun, we don't want to have HF drift into as one person put it in another post, "a mindless feeding session." Give people a floofy title/costume and a chance to get back at the guy who's been mauling him for the last 100 points.

The love and war point was not an example against your point of view. It was to demonstrate my belief that rules dictate fairness by showing that the absence of rules means anything goes and all is fair.

Reply to Section 3: The randomness of the teams puts luck into the game. There is a chance you get a good hand and can deal with the dragon. At the same time there is a chance you get a bad hand. The dragon just acts to make that luck a bigger factor. Should the dragon be removed as there is the possibility one team is unlucky enough not to be able to handle it? Should luck based games have a limit as far as how unlucky one side could be?

As for the issue of team work, sorry if it seemed to be an argument I was trying to make in favor of keeping the dragon. It was more an issue I had with your points about the one player that makes or breaks the team. As to me the goal of HF is fun for all and every player is a person with a drive to win, it rubs me the wrong way to think of it only as trying to be the hero that wins the day. There's nothing wrong with the hero, but the little guys who make sure the game starts, who enter so they can get that pvp set and become the heroes, who have feelings, should not be forgotten when changes are made to the game.

Reply to Section 4:
Point 3:
Second: The game is not over till you have the whole number of points. First you win your lead, then you keep it. The other team has a right to fight for a comeback. While they do not have a "right" to a comeback mechanic, there is no reason why some sort of mechanic shouldn't exist. (Note, I say "some sort of mechanic" not necesarily the HF dragon.)

Pont 4: I also waited a long time before I joined pvp. I got the set I wanted, made my yellows, and forted everything to the point I could fairly say I was above average. I'm not even close to the best, but it's at the point quite a few have asked me for advice.

I've also lost quite a few times, and given how squishy my class at lvl 70 is and that I do my darndest to get in the action (in other words, not hiding behind stealth even if there's no way for a comeback), probably die more often than you. Once again the same, I didn't whine about it (unless as a jest).

Still, when I enter a round where it's obviously one sided in my team's favor, I don't have fun. I typically sit, usually with the rest of my team, moving only if the enemy tries for an impossible comeback. Why? It's no fun if there's no challenge in it. It also lessens the liklihood that those on the other team will rejoin. The strong win. The weak lose. But there's no fun if there's no chance for the weak.

On PC and implying you like to bully, firstly I said "if you want." I'm not you, so I don't know if you enjoy bullying or not, so I said "if" as opposed to "since." Secondly, that you've been crushed doesn't many times doesn't mean you dislike being a bully. (I still haven't called nor am implying you are as I simply am not you.) Someof the most viscious bullies do what they do because they are getting their turn after having been bullied for years. West Point, the United States Military Institute at one point had a severe hazing problem. The upper classmen abused the freshmen to no end. Yet... all those upper classmen at one point were in the shoes of the freshmen and experianced the same thing.

Last: First, even matches for me are rare. Matches where the dragon mechanic has been manipulated in the way you described for me are not rare. They are non-existant. I've always enjoyed the even matches and never had one ruined. I also don't know how often even matches are ruinned by dragon manipulation on Ponchee. If it were a severe problem on Quill, or even a mildly common problem, I think I'd have experianced it at least once.

Also, I did not suggest removing the dragon. I suggested fixing this one issue providing it's worth the time after considering how often it happens and the work needed to do the fixing. I even suggested a method of fixing.

Point 4: Simply to better my understanding, mind telling me how often it happens when both teams are about equal?

Point 5: Agreed. It's why in my last response on this point I simply directed any possible readers to where we addressed this.

Reply to Section 5:
Point 1:I beg to differ. Anyhow, let's keep that debate to that location (Section 2).

Point 2: I'm not sure which genre of game you are saying is different. If you mean platform games, I never used them as an example. The genre I was refering to I believe would most typically referred to as a "role playing game (RPG), which GF happens to be. I was however refering chiefly to the time which needs to be put into levelling. For a game that works somewhat in the opposite direction, yet also lies in the genre of "RPG," look at Guild Wars 2, a game which has gained quite a bit of fame due to it's innovations and trying things different from most games. In the closest pvp that GW2 has to HF, they make all players roughly equal gear wise and level wise. This is one of those "innovations" that draw people to GW2.

On the other examples dealing mainly with life in general, I already said I'd scede the point due to lack of importance to the end goal of this debate. Are you trying to get some sort of "last word" on the point?

Point 4: Useless to argue. I simply must remember that when you say "exploitation," you mean what to me is "exploitation to a too great degree." It doesn't change anything, but I've always seen your definition as more of a side definition, always listed after mine in most any dictionary I've read. Reminds me of a debate I've had over the word, "dictatorship." Many people see it always with a negative connotation. However, it is simply is a form of government in which one man makes all the decisions. My mother used to call the relationship she had with me as a "benevolent dictatorship," as she had only the best intentions for me, but short of God and the law she held the final authority.

(This is not argument. It's purely for the joy of reminiscing. As I'm in this debate for the joy of debate, I see no problem with doing this. On a side note, I think debating purely for the fun of it is the best position to have in a debate, as I see no problem with being convinced by my opponents arguments. Keep on trying! You may be close.)

If a team isn't actively trying to make sure they get the dragon and the other team doesn't, specifically by not trying their hardest to get points, then they are not exploiting the dragon as per your definition.

Conclusion: So far we've seen that we both have some rather opposed views on how the world works. Of course, we both think our view is best. Looking only at this debate however, I think we may be close to a compromise, or at least I would be. I see only one clear example where as you say, "it confounds fair gameplay." This is where one team doesn't try their hardest to get points to get them the dragon while denying it to their enemy. This one example is not enough to call for a removal of a mechanic, but could call for a slight repair. If a clock is off, you set it to the right time. If a person has the flu, send him to a doctor and don't solve the problem with a bullet. Of course, the clock "could" be off because the hands simply won't move and the gears are fried. The person's flu "could" actually be a mortal illness. Still, before chucking the clock (I'll avoid the person in this part. Killing people under any circumstance involving illness gets controversial), you try fixing it first. It's a simple concept.

Element.Ag

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PostedFeb 01, 2013 10:55 am
Reply to Section 2: The dragon is not available in equal opportunity for both teams, the dragon's strength and duration does much more than "even the odds," and of course teams can unfairly obtain it. If you don't want it gone, fine with me. You will however be admitting that you're completely alright with unfairness being programmed into the game.

The fun you speak of derives from fairness. I argue that the team that must face the dragon has a decrease of fun due to receiving an unfair disadvantage

Most competitive games don't have comeback mechanics. None of the ones that anyone takes halfway seriously either. Sports, Chess, Checkers, and many others are revered as great games. These games share in common the fact that there is a high degree of uniformity and fairness among opponents. The players themselves are the only differing variables that decide the winner and loser of the match.

Also, if people don't want to get crushed by 100 points they should do what is necessary to win. 100 point mauls wouldn't happen if players bought forts and stones instead of costumes. 100 point mauls also wouldn't happen if players took time to learn their class. Do you know how many people I've fought that will use the same tactic over and over again even though it has never worked on me? That's what's causing the 100 point beat downs. You're attempting to fix the problem by curing a symptom.

Stop acting like the people that lose by 100 points are automatically entitled to get something when they have done nothing to deserve it.

Reply to Section 3: The dragon is not luck. You have to either cheat to receive it or be an unintentionally bad player/team. Neither of those are deserving of a reward.

Also, teams weren't really intended to be such a luck factor either. This is the only GF community that has issues with team join.

If someone is in 40, 50, or 60 bracket I can understand the concept. They don't give them enough resources to make money to be competitive with twinks. After 70 however, if you really care about winning in PVP you can easily afford to +10 all of your items if you put down the effort. If teams were filled with +10 players who actually took time to learn how to win, then there wouldn't be a need for these heroes. I personally hate having to carry a team. I would enjoy it more if I could play with competent teammates and foes.

Reply to Section 4:
Point 3:
Second: The mechanic shouldn't exist if it is not fair. Already been through this.

Third: If you dislike one-sided games I sympathize with you. However, having them evened by unfair means is unacceptable. Encourage people to actually do what is necessary to give you a good fight instead. Been through this before.

PC comment is dropped. I really think it was intended as a troll. If I was hellbent on bullying people I could do something like twink an overpowered class in a lower bracket and slaughter new players. There are a Hard of a lot less geared players in lower brackets than in mine. I want what I earn and I want it to be fair. If I slaughter someone, who cares? If I get slaughtered, again, who cares? I only have a gripe if it's unfair.

Last: I'm glad you're willing to fix one problem. A fix should be considered regardless of whether or not it happens in the majority of matches. How do you even know it's never happened to you? What if people just stop capturing the crystal, but continue fighting? For what reason do they have to make it as obvious as the times they've done it in my presence?

Point 4: When both teams are relatively equal is the only time it has a chance to happen. I'll go as far to say I can't remember a single game of HF that has not had a dragon involved. In even my closest of matches someone has always pulled away by 35 points and a dragon has always been involved rather it be on purpose or unintentional.

Reply to Section 5:
Point 2: The genre of games where difficulty increases with level is not in anyway relevant to this debate. When talking about competitive games, difficulty increases with the skill of the opponent.

Your example of GW2 proves games work to create a degree of fairness. I wouldn't mind having a system like that at all as long as it was fair. This example proves that in competitive gaming, developers strive to level the playing field. The only variable that should select the winner or loser is the player. No outside forces. Players should not receive advantages simply for losing.

This actually contradicts your view of the dragon. The dragon is unfair because it is a selective unequal advantage that is given to the losing team without the need to exert any sort of effort. The dragon has the strength to completely turn matches around. Your example undermines the point you're desperately trying to make.

I never brought up the previously dropped point. Please read it again... because I'm not sure where you got that from...

Point 4: The context of the definition is negative and almost always is related to cheating. Your definition of "exploit" is technically synonymous to "capitalize." In English, one reason we have synonyms because the words hint subtle meanings. Both words technically mean the same thing, but to say "He exploited an opportunity" has negative connotations as opposed to "He capitalized on an opportunity." Being called "beautiful" is considered stronger and more positive than being called "pretty."

The dragon is meant to give bad teams a chance to get back in the game. This in and of itself is wrong. What's arguably worse is teams that aren't bad using it to gain extreme advantages. In this example the dragon is not being used for its intended purpose and is disrupting the fairness of the game. It is therefore an exploit by my definition. This point is specifically dedicated to addressing cheaters and not the normal players who do not.

Conclusion: The only way I would accept the existence of the dragon is if one or more of these solutions were set in place.

  • No dragons after the 10 minute mark.
  • Losing team only receives the dragon after a 50 to 70 point deficit.
  • Dragon form immediately disappears when the losing team's score matches the winning team's.
  • If the losing team receives a dragon, the winning team is guaranteed to receive one as well.
  • Dragon dive loses the ability to hit extreme damage (1-hit KO) on players.
  • If dragon dive damage remains unchanged, give it a severe cooldown time increase.
  • Dragon does not silence casters when hit with magic.
  • Lower the dragon's maximum HP.
  • Remove dragon anti-stun.


I suggest those points because:

  • The dragon must become very disadvantageous to abuse for unfair purposes.
  • It's power must be lowered. It should not be able to hit 10k-20k and stun every 8 seconds.
  • It should have a very real threat of dying at any time. It should not be able to float around with 60k-80k hp, high defense, and high evade. That mixed with its current ability to deal out extremely high amounts of damage is unacceptable.

minuzaki

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PostedFeb 01, 2013 12:56 pm
I've been stalking this thread for a bit. Here are my thoughts.

Regarding the +9 swords thing, I've been in hammer and shield as the dragon. I 1-2 shot Crusaders.

About "teamwork"; The concept of this has been long gone from Grand Fantasia. You only work together when someone absolutely needs to be brought down. Seeing as most people avoid the dragon and go off on their own trying to cap crystal, etc etc.

I'm not saying it's impossible to kill the dragon. I'm not saying remove it. These are just my thoughts on the matter. We can't really do anything. With our developers, nothing will change.

has moved to aeriagames.com/user/Ayvii

KurysFlame

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PostedFeb 04, 2013 11:18 pm
I just spent over 3 hours composing a reply when I accidentally clicked CTRL R. There went my 3 hours work. My reason to continue this debate was entertainment. I see nothing fun about trying to remember all I said. I am curious as to how well geared those crusaders are minuzaki (as well as greatful that you spoke up ^^). My main is only level 72, so I'm still brimming with curiosity about the new classes and end game pvp. Sadly, I agree on the issue of teamwork. One thing I would greatly enjoy about seeing some form of stacking brought back is that teams may try using voice communication, as I think that has great potential in creating team work.

@Silver: sorry for not putting up more for you to throw at, at least if you've enjoyed this as much as I have. I'm quite greatful to you for creating this post. Thank you.

"Radical Edward's profile is a seven foot tall ex-basketball pro Hindu guru drag-queen alien." ―Jet Black

iBambi

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PostedFeb 05, 2013 3:52 am
minuzaki wrote:
I've been stalking this thread for a bit. Here are my thoughts.

Regarding the +9 swords thing, I've been in hammer and shield as the dragon. I 1-2 shot Crusaders.

About "teamwork"; The concept of this has been long gone from Grand Fantasia. You only work together when someone absolutely needs to be brought down. Seeing as most people avoid the dragon and go off on their own trying to cap crystal, etc etc.

I'm not saying it's impossible to kill the dragon. I'm not saying remove it. These are just my thoughts on the matter. We can't really do anything. With our developers, nothing will change.  


I've been in 2-hand hammer with CS pots and still couldn't do enough DMG to decent Crusaders to actually kill them before they could just pot up. I don't know who you played against, but maybe they were badly geared, running around on 2-hand with no DEF bonuses or just low lvled..

Element.Ag

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PostedFeb 05, 2013 6:27 am
KurysFlame wrote:
I just spent over 3 hours composing a reply when I accidentally clicked CTRL R. There went my 3 hours work. My reason to continue this debate was entertainment. I see nothing fun about trying to remember all I said. I am curious as to how well geared those crusaders are minuzaki (as well as greatful that you spoke up ^^). My main is only level 72, so I'm still brimming with curiosity about the new classes and end game pvp. Sadly, I agree on the issue of teamwork. One thing I would greatly enjoy about seeing some form of stacking brought back is that teams may try using voice communication, as I think that has great potential in creating team work.

@Silver: sorry for not putting up more for you to throw at, at least if you've enjoyed this as much as I have. I'm quite greatful to you for creating this post. Thank you.  


I understand.

I didn't have much more to say anyway. I quit the game a few days ago for reasons unrelated to this. I don't really have much drive debating about a game I probably won't be playing again (or for a while, at the very least).

Thank you, good-bye.

b1ttersweet

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PostedFeb 08, 2013 7:15 am
Removing bits was great because it prevented people from exploiting it and intentionally hiding behind it the whole match Very Happy The point of the buff if to give you enough time to prep, it shouldn't last forever.

In regards to the dragon, I don't understand why people are complaining about it. I think it's a perfectly fair means of compensating for an imbalance in teams and it's perfectly counter-able.

If you're an evasion class, the dragon shouldn't be hitting you. With only two attacks that have very high cooldowns, it's even harder to hit someone in dragon than as a human. If you're not an evasion class, you usually have high defence, and since the dragon can't 1 hit you, you just proceed to capture the crystal. A good dragon will almost always cap the crystal the back right after you've gotten it, and so you're essentially crystal exchanging. If you're one of the few classes that the dragon can 1 hit, you usually have roots/locks to compensate for it; and while you might get killed a few times, you're still helping your team.

Also dragons with 1/3 of their HP are very invulnerable. They only have one healing skill with very high cooldown, they can usually be taken down if you know what you're doing.

Also, certain classes are less of a threat as a dragon; AMs for instance.
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