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Killa_1112

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Killa_1112
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PostedMar 13, 2012 7:44 pm
Gold Wipe

Nuff said.
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GMTurlas

GameMaster: USA
GMTurlas
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PostedMar 14, 2012 1:29 pm
A gold wipe might make a change, but I doubt it would fix anything. The goal seems to be to fix the economy, not reset it. Finding a solution will not be an over-night affair. Sad

Killa_1112

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Killa_1112
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PostedMar 14, 2012 1:33 pm
GMTurlas wrote:
A gold wipe might make a change, but I doubt it would fix anything. The goal seems to be to fix the economy, not reset it. Finding a solution will not be an over-night affair. Sad  
If you reset gold you force prices down using the logic that with no gold nobody can afford billions anymore. If prices dont drop then sellers are scr3wed because nobody can afford what they are asking, this in turn forces OP prices down, and makes them reasonable again (may take time to balance but will get there evntually), this has a the knock on effect of removing them as currency.

Besides, worst hits worst a rollback is do-able, though i belive this will have more an effect than people realise. Gold must come out of the economy to give it back value, otherwise it remains useless.

The economy may be thrown into turmoil for a few days as the shock of the loss of all gold take grip, but eventually the players will find the natural balance again.

Olaf1989

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PostedMar 14, 2012 1:51 pm
GMTurlas wrote:
A gold wipe might make a change, but I doubt it would fix anything. The goal seems to be to fix the economy, not reset it. Finding a solution will not be an over-night affair. Sad  


/agrees , If u want to fix the economy make more pvp items farmeable. The GM / PM team knows the inflation exists due to high demand of items such as enchants - max oj - lvl7 - gears and the low supply (only via AP), so if people dont buy AP there´s no supply.

Sorry AGE team, u know how to fix the economy, just dont want to earn less money.

n3cr0m33p5

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PostedMar 14, 2012 11:56 pm
A gold wipe wouldn't work as well as it could because, unless it was done unannounced (and be prepared for a massive amount of blowback if you did that), players would buy up goods prior to the wipe, have no gold on them to be wiped and we would still be in a "barter" style system where the original game currency (gold) has been cast aside for another currency (AP items).

One of the Aeria higher ups put the gold flow as an analogy (skeptika here) to a faucet (gold in) + sink (gold out), but Shaiya doesn't really have any good sinks to remove the gold. Repairs ? A few "junk" gear drops will cover those. Potions ? A little more pricy item, but mobs drop pots and a good party shouldn't need to use many of them.

Why not reduce the flow from the "faucet" instead so that the amount of gold being introduced into the system 24/7 is decreased. More gold in system = less buying power, less gold in system = more buying power. Over time, as less gold is being introduced, more gold would be leaving the system (as % of currently existing gold) than was leaving before, helping to restore the buying power of gold.

I'd suggest a reduction of 50% (or more) for mob gold drops. Low level characters have little need for the current amount of gold that is being dropped by mobs and because gold drops do increase as mob level increases, a decrease of this type shouldn't overly affect characters of higher level.

Item drops sold to NPCs currently provide even more gold than mob drops, giving 10% of item value, so a reduction from 10% to 1-5% of item value will still yield a good amount of gold for a pack full of "junk" items to be sold. As with gold drops, item value increases by level, so reducing the payout from NPCs shouldn't have an adverse affect either.
Shaiya - Lapis Compilation 2.0

Killa_1112

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PostedMar 15, 2012 1:25 am
n3cr0m33p5 wrote:
A gold wipe wouldn't work as well as it could because, unless it was done unannounced (and be prepared for a massive amount of blowback if you did that), players would buy up goods prior to the wipe, have no gold on them to be wiped and we would still be in a "barter" style system where the original game currency (gold) has been cast aside for another currency (AP items).

One of the Aeria higher ups put the gold flow as an analogy (skeptika here) to a faucet (gold in) + sink (gold out), but Shaiya doesn't really have any good sinks to remove the gold. Repairs ? A few "junk" gear drops will cover those. Potions ? A little more pricy item, but mobs drop pots and a good party shouldn't need to use many of them.

Why not reduce the flow from the "faucet" instead so that the amount of gold being introduced into the system 24/7 is decreased. More gold in system = less buying power, less gold in system = more buying power. Over time, as less gold is being introduced, more gold would be leaving the system (as % of currently existing gold) than was leaving before, helping to restore the buying power of gold.

I'd suggest a reduction of 50% (or more) for mob gold drops. Low level characters have little need for the current amount of gold that is being dropped by mobs and because gold drops do increase as mob level increases, a decrease of this type shouldn't overly affect characters of higher level.

Item drops sold to NPCs currently provide even more gold than mob drops, giving 10% of item value, so a reduction from 10% to 1-5% of item value will still yield a good amount of gold for a pack full of "junk" items to be sold. As with gold drops, item value increases by level, so reducing the payout from NPCs shouldn't have an adverse affect either.  
Anything that needs the devs to change the coding for simply will not happen, history has shown this time and time again. The devs are needed for this, a wipe is not.

n3cr0m33p5

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PostedMar 16, 2012 2:35 am
The player's have tried to change the economy in a few ways (SMG, selling only to friends or trusted guildmates, etc) but all of their efforts have failed because there were still those players willing to spend whatever it took to acquire the items they wanted. Even the GMs have stepped in from time to time with gold based raffles, but even though those raffles pulled out a large amount of gold on the day(s) that the raffle was run, there was still tons more gold laying around unused and gold was also stilll being pumped into the system by those not participating in the raffle.

We have taken our turns in trying to "fix" the economy, but without additional support of some kind from the devs it's not going to get any better. A gold wipe will only reset the economy and a reset will not fix the problem.

Make more wanted items farmable (7s, gear, weapons, etc).

Make changes to the amount of mob gold drops and gold given by NPC-ing items.

Create a Raffle NPC the GMs can spawn (with custom item(s) of choice) so unlimited amounts of gold can be pulled from the system during a raffle instead of needing the GM to dump their 4B gold every so often and/or restock the item for entry.

No matter the fix, it's going to require the devs to do something.
Shaiya - Lapis Compilation 2.0

kerrrblahhh

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PostedMar 18, 2012 12:34 am
Not sure if all this would be possible or the work load involved but maybe try:

First, knock 3 zeros off of the gold everyone in game currently has. This needs careful adjustment. This way those with much gold will still have much gold just in lower form.

Second, Wipe all OPs, Lucky Charms, and Linking Hammers from the game. In place for every item wiped the person receives the current average market price of the item, but with three zeros knocked off(so if 2.7b before then after 2.7million after).

Third, set up a merchant in game to buy OPs, Lucky Charms, and Linking Hammers from. Each of these items should cost whatever the average market cost of the item before the switch over with three zeros knocked off(so if 2.7b before then after 2.7million after) from the merchant. This would set the precedent for the price of AP items. AGE could still sell these in the item mall for AP too, because with them being always used/broken/wiped people will need more. Because they will need gold to get them in game and after step6 gold will be harder to get, many who'd rather be pvping would most likely rather buy them online with AP rather than constant gold farming. Making them still be a profitable AP item.

Fourth, all Linking items except lapis should be wiped from the game regularly just as PLHs are. This ensures that they will not end up as the unofficial currency once again.

Fifth, for a few days before the wipe of the linking items there should be a linking bonus taking place. This is to help make sure that people use their linking supplies and are ready for the wipe.

Sixth, the gold drop rate from in game mobs should be lowered, and the amount that items sell for should be slightly lowered as well.

dodoo

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PostedMar 18, 2012 5:03 am
I dont know why people always complain about players greed. Thats a very human attribute and helps us to survive in real life or elsewhere. Dont get me wrong, I dont want to encourage people to be even more greedy, it is just we cant change human mankind. Instead of complaining about it we or better any economical system has to deal with it.

In fact the players greed is not the source of the high ingame prices. Greed itself leads to a total different problem - the imbalance in distribution of goods. (rich vs. poor)
As long as the amount of goods (supply and demand) and the amount of money is stable prices wont go up. Shaiya breaks with this market equilibrium in several ways:

  • fluctuations in supply and demand
    This is not a problem per se, it just opens the door for profitable trading activity. A healthy system (with enough suppliers and customers, e.g. no monopolization) would just balance it out. In Shaiya we have the game (world drops), the players (you sell something) and AGE (AP items) as item suppliers. Customers are the players and the game itself when you sell something to npc, a tax is charged (e.g. gatekeeper) or an item gets destroyed.
    This is the point where people can feed their greed. They can farm 10h a day or wait the same amount of time to snipe a good deal in AH or trade chat. Greed is not only about the selling price it is also the amount of goods you have for sale. Greed starts there, where you try to get more than the average player, no matter if you got it with hard work (farming) or a cup of tea in AH (at least the system doesnt care about the How or players ethics).
    The game always had some monopolization tendency - AGE itself as only AP item seller (every single OP has to be bought with AP in the past) and some of the high level ingame items (farmed by top guilds). The latter lost somewhat of interest since the game moved on and the newer parts favor a more balanced distribution via random drops. The first though got more important with the availability of gear via AP. And this monopoly is somewhat problematic when used to supply highly demanded items (which is actually the case). It totally relies on the AP buyers (which is another market in the system - to make it even more complicated). With enough AP buyers (or better used AP) we have enough AP items ingame - with a decline in bought AP items we face a price increase ingame. It decouples any AP item from the ingame economy (Here it was just a matter of time until people would have chosen a new currency and market - OPs and barter). At this point we should not forget that you have to spend real money for AP and sane people would not go overboard with their monthly expenses. While AGE has made a shift in AP items towards gear and people (hopefully) still spend the same amount the high demand AP items fall behind and go up in prices. The price increase of lapisia is a good example for this.
    For this I dont have a solution since I dont know anything about AGEs business model, profits, long term interests and so on. (Well I got one question - What happened to the BOGO promotions? Did the Spaghetti Monster eat the BOGO part of the promos?)

  • amount of goods
    Basically all items in Shaiya are either persistent or limited. Persistent items are those that will live forever even if used. Limited items are those that have specific usage limitations, e.g. a timer or single usage - they get consumed (it doesnt mean a limitation in availability here). In long terms persistent items follow totally different rules than the limited. While limited items have the power to regulate their amount and find its own equilibrium persitent items cant. Their amount just grows bigger and bigger if the supply is garanteed and devaluates them step by step. Thats a very common problem in mmorpgs. I dont know if any game has a working solution for this. A quick solution might increase the repair costs over lifetime until the item gets unmaintainable (basically make them limited too). This way the game would have gotten rid even of the nasty ultimate item pocket items. Wink

  • amount of gold/currency
    This is the one and only reason for the global price increase. The game creates more gold than it destroys over time. I would account gold dupes here too, they just triggered the inflation to hyperinflation. Back in EP3 OPs were at 36M, then started to grow up to 80-100M (inflation) and out of a sudden we saw them going up to 1B within a few months (hyperinflation - the time when the dupers multiplied the ingame gold amount). With EP5 or so the main dupe exploits got fixed and the price only went up by 2.5 until now (normal inflation again).
    The inflation itself can only be fixed by adjusting the gold creation vs. depletion. I dont know if the shaiya server allows to observe those rates or to customize them easily. Also I dont know what would be a fair adjustment here. Basically it seems that the higher game content should have higher costs (gatekeeper, repairs etc.). I second kerrrblahhh's idea to lower gold drops and npc'ing prices (esp. lower the npc prices for higher game stuff).
    Second problem is the total amount of gold currently in the system - its just crazy. Why do we have barter? - Because the gold amount raised prices up to a level where the game client stops working. Just remove the high numbers by doing a 1000:1 exchange during a maintenance.


One side note to the current tiered:
This months tiered is heavy OP related and will flood the game with OPs OPs OPs. This is good for OP prices in AH and will lower it to some degree. But since we all see OPs as the big currency this will lead to another problem - with the devaluation of OPs the barter prices will jump up. Imho this will further open the gap between AP and non AP players. But thats just speculation...

Seems I didnt come up with good solutions, only an analysis lol ><

JamesGodden

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PostedMar 19, 2012 5:49 am
n3cr0m33p5 wrote:
A gold wipe wouldn't work as well as it could because, unless it was done unannounced (and be prepared for a massive amount of blowback if you did that), players would buy up goods prior to the wipe, have no gold on them to be wiped and we would still be in a "barter" style system where the original game currency (gold) has been cast aside for another currency (AP items).  


that doesn't actually stop it from working, especially if its a % Gold wipes such as the one killa is suggesting will maintain the status of rich and poor, the goods would still lose their "value" as the gold will have gone down by w/e Percentage was picked, (probably 99.9%) so 1billion becomes 1 million, OPs become 2.7mil not 2.7bil. The effect of that isn't on the existing players, its on the new ones.

Currently new players will see the numbers in trade chat and the amount of gold they are getting even from mobs and NPC selling upto lvl 40ish and think it is impossible to earn the figures spoken about, if the figures were smaller then they'll actually reasonably quickly earn the gold they need.

Sure it would only be a reset, but it would remove some of the damage which occured in late 2009 when large amounts of illegally "created" gold and Ops got introduced and laundered.
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