Hi everybody,

First of all, I play in another server (run by AGE, not a private one) which is still in ep4, I'm going to duo with a friend and we want to play pagan and oracle. So, this makes us want to choose between:

- rec pagan (with self AoEs and the increased defense in ep5, apart from ele buff) and wis orc.

- rec orc (self heal, heals over time, 4x wis heals, increased defense and ele buff, as well as having frost barrier to keep aggro and frozen ice to "taunt") and full int (maybe luc later) pagan.

1) Which option do you think is better? Why?
2) We had in mind to start right when ep5 came (if it ever does) so we would farm with our HMs before, would you recommend starting anytime before ep5? Why?
3) Which builds would you recommend for each of us (by level or by set goals at different levels) for ep5, and for ep4 too if you think starting before is a better idea?

Don't make a pagan.

I was kind of expecting that (from you mainly), I also thought about bguard, but leveling would be tough (in duo at least) and pagan seems fun to pvp with. I've never been an elite, so I'm used to it.

BGuards can indeed be nice but will start working after 40s.

Rec pagans can just tank, they cant heal nor DD (in a party)

Rec oracles can heal and tank, easy to duo even harder mobs with self heal.

Full rec pagans with a debuff wep are nice in PvP, but pagan will never be a DD due to resist being f'ed. EP2-4 was when there was a point to play INT pagan.. now? Not really. (been playing mage/pagan since EP3 )

PS: for PvP with a pagan.. it will work till 70 gear AND if people arent linking wit helms on your server. They cheap and easy to link though.

There's more options than you mentioned. I think one of your options is best, but I want you to at least acknowledge a few others just in case you think one is better for some reason. For sake of simplicity, I will call your first option (REC pagan/WIS orc) as Option A, your second (REC orc/INT pagan) as B, and my others as C, D, and E.

A) REC pagan and WIS orc.

B) REC orc and INT pagan.

C) REC pagan and INT orc. Here, the pagan tanks and the orc heals when necessary, but otherwise attacks.

D) REC pagan and REC orc. Here, they will do double pulls and draw them in together, killing together with Frost Barrier, Fire Thorn, and their instant AOE's.

E) INT pagan and INT orc. Here, they will both kill mobs one at a time (individually or together -- doesn't matter) similiar to 2 hunters duoing.

Now let's discuss each option for both duoing and once you start looking for parties.

A) This is the 2nd worst options because only 1 person is attacking AND it's the tank, who has low attack. When looking for parties, people will want the orc but only take the pagan as a tag along. Unless the pagan tanks for the party, they will be more harm than good because they'll pull aggro form whoever DOES tank. Please, do not do this one.

B) This is probably the BEST option, and since you thought of it yourself you should probably go with it. Oracles are in generaly better tanks due to higher natural resistance to magic, Self Heal, and the ability to use Great Healing Pool without getting to close to the other person, among possible other things I'm sure that I'm just not thinking of right now. This duo has only one drawback: none of a pagans' AOE's are spammable (while an orcs are). If you don't kill before you run out of AOE's, the kills wil go slower than if you go with option C. I'm sure this issue will come up some, but overall the pros probably outweigh this one con. When looking for a party, this will be everyone's favorite duo. They'll have a nice DPS pagan, but also a nice orc tank and what party wouldn't kill for a tank?

C) This is the next best option, and what you should do if you fear the con of option B. In general, orcs have more consistent, reliable DPS and over a long pull will deal more damage, consistently and reliably, to kill the mobs and get the job done. The problem lies in the fact that pagans are more susceptible to magic and can't heal themselves. The pagan will be relying almost entirely on the oracle to heal, and if they are busy DPSing this could pose a problem. If the DPSer has to constantly be healing or dispelling, they will clearly kill slower...making this more than likely worse than option B (whose tank can heal and dispel themselves, not wasting the time of the attacker). When looking for a party, this duo is also not very attractive. I've already mentioned the problem with REC pagans in parties...and as far as a borc goes; sure, they might not mind them in the party, BUT, they more likely need a healer -- or even a tank, before they need DPS.

D) This is 3rd best, and 3rd worst option. This is a good option if you are good at finding places to grind with lots of mobs and if you both (even the pagan) can stay alive well enough without relying on the other. The problem with this option is the same as option A: no DPSers. You are relying on Frost Barrier and Fire Thorn to kill things. This may seem fast at first, but at a high enough level it'll be fairly slow. If you try looking for a party with this duo, you'll undergo that whole "useless REC pagan" option as before, but even worse, they're completley useless since you already have an orc in your duo to tank. This is by far the worst one for parties.

E) This is the worst option, but is an option nonetheless. It's entirely different from the others as it requires no tanking. The problem is...pagans and orcs are AOE-killers, and therefore this duo would be the slowest of all. It's a good one for parties though, because you have a TWO DPSers, if need be, and if not you at least have 1 and a healer! Even so, I highly don't recomend this option.

Well, there's my opinions on duoing/partying with those 2 classes in Ep5. As far as starting in Ep4 goes...I wouldn't advise it. Both classes change drasticaly in Ep5 and what you want to do with them would probably change too. If you think you'll be getting Ep5 soon, just wait it out. It's worth the wait.

Side note: splasher_ just likes to bash everyone and make them feel bad. Play whatever class you have the most fun playing.

And if you DO deside to play a BG instead of pagan, make the orc a BORC (regardless of whatever splasher_ tells you). BG's can tank well, and don't need a tank nor do they really need a WIS healer.

I think making false accusiations is against the ToS.

But I will stop bashing YiLi now, sorry about this.

Splasher I beg you not to stop posting, I kind of "admire" you, despite your somewhat hard comments I really appreciate your intervention.

It seems torc and int pag is the best option, but the self aoe's worked nice (I tried first option in Gaia).

At lower lvls self cast AoEs do enough damage, but after 40 when you get to Dino Lan DD1 DD2, even map 5 they arent enough and badly needs more damage.

I'm not sure about Lv61+, but from Lv1-60, your best option is probably Int Pagan/Int Oracle duo.

Mobs are weak. Really weak. All you have to do them is kill them before they kill you. This is the very essense of a grinder. All you focus on is killing faster. Faster kills means faster XP, period. Being able to tank 100 purple mobs is useless if it takes more than a few seconds to kill them all. I did the vast majority of my grinding in a duo with another Mage who, like myself, was a pure damage build. We AoE'd just fine.

The process:

• Oracle buffs self with HoTs and Frost Barrier and does a body lure (run and gather).
  
• The Pagan should stay close to the Oracle and have Fire Thorns buffed. The reason being is that the Pagan will next throw a couple hits of Attribute Remove on the pull. This can potentially take aggro (though not likely because of Frost Barrier).
  
• The Pagan then uses Earthquake. This gives a brief pause for the Oracle to rebuff HoTs or heal if needed.
  
• If the Pagan gets aggro, no big deal. Mobs up until Lanhaar are extremely weak and a round or two of hits shouldn't kill you, especially if you have some funds for HP heavy gear. After Lanhaar, there's really no reason at all not to have HP heavy gear.
  
• Both players will use instant AoEs (Frozen Ice, Storm, Earth Strike, Fire Wall). If this doesn't kill everything, then kite a little and use Elemental Shock (Oracle) and Chain Lightning (Pagan). If this STILL doesn't kill everything... the Pagan's Storm should be ready to use again.
  
• By now, you've hit the mobs with AoE 8 times, all the while with Frost Barrier and Fire Thorns ticking away. If it takes more hits than that, you're grinding on mobs that are too difficult. In a 20-30 set, I can drop a pull of DD2 mobs with my Lv56 HM Mage in 6 hits or less.

All the time wasted on considering who's gonna tank and if you have enough Rec, that's a waste and you're not grinding efficiently enough. The more Rec you have, the less dependent you are on other players, but at the same time, the slower you grind. Grinding fast is all about attack power, attack speed, elemental attack, and crits.

My advice - pure DD build for both you and your friend for now. Once you get to Lv61+, you might have to change things up, but worrying about that beforehand, again, will only make you grind more slowly. Shaiya is a cruel enough grinder already. Don't make it more difficult for yourself

And one thing to keep in mind - splasher is a better caster than I am and he has much more experience in PvP.

If the tank has INT and no REC, they will die tanking. If they don't die tanking, you are on mobs to EASY for you. It's acctually quite feasible for up until lan to do purple mobs as a torc, but that would make for slow kills since also purple to the pagan. What I sugest, do mobs that are difficult to tank unless you have REC, but you can still kill reasonably fast with INT. Orange mobs should most often do the trick.

If you DO decide to do both with INT, go for green mobs or dark blue.