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chewie105

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PostedJun 19, 2011 12:39 am

archer build: full str / full luc

comparison


so anywyas, i was curious because someone told me to try full luc with a little bit of dex. the damage is indicated in the first picture.

got curious, so i tried full str to see what kind of damage i put out and at most i hit 5.8k.

on full luc build, i can hit 5.7k. with random numbers of 5k-5.8k.

even though i have soo much more str vs luc, i was still able to put out almost the same damage as i had with str.
so my question is... what's the difference between LUC and STR on archers? which is actually more useful to add.

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xybolt

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PostedJun 19, 2011 3:18 am
critical dmg formula

Code:
 ( [ (your attack + skill bonus * ele % ) - opp's defense] * 1.5) + (your luc * ( [0,1.5] ) )


[0,1.5] = a random value between it.


----> "full" STR.
att : 262.5+1261+161.8= ~1685

----> "full" LUC
att : 448.8+640+161.8 = ~1250


as you can see, without weapon, the attack difference of both build is 435.
now, since there are the LUC multiplier, which is based on your LUC stat.

since it's random between 0 and 1.5, i pick 0.75, which can happen more frequently

---> "full" STR.
luc multiplier : 0.75*875 - 1.5*875 = 656

---> "full" LUC
luc multiplier : 0 - 0.75*1496 = 1122

without weapon, the difference is 466.


look to both results, at one, you've 435 bonus for 1st build, and at the 2nd, with the luc multiplier, you've 466 bonus for the 2nd build. that's almost same Razz


chewie105 wrote:
so my question is... what's the difference between LUC and STR on archers? which is actually more useful to add.  


as proven it's almost same.

BUT, the first build works only on lower - mid defense mobs. Against bosses, or people with high defense ( read more then 1500 ) the first build doesn't work well due of cutting of your high dmg with their defense.

PvP wise, i prefer the STR build one, from my experiences

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chewie105

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PostedJun 19, 2011 5:25 pm
is it worth getting more than 600 luc for archers? is there any benefits from adding more luc over str?

xybolt

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PostedJun 20, 2011 1:25 am
it depends, but PvP wise it does.

as known, the LUC can also decrease the another's critical%. per 20, it's -1%
most fighters/warriors tends to have 300+ LUC. that's -15%. but at 600LUC, you've 120%, so 120-15 = 105 -> 95% ( max capped )

actually, some people push up their LUC higher then 600 to have also a "full" criticals against another archer/hunters or classes with high LUC.

my goal is to aim for 700 LUC at lvl70, why ? well assume that the other has same amount as my LUC, 700/5 - 700/20 = 105% => 95%. so i'm safe to have criticals against other archer/hunters Razz
( if it's 600, then you've 90% o.o )

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MerlinMcTav

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PostedJun 20, 2011 6:43 pm
To demonstrate Xybolt's point, a couple of tables might be in order.
First table shows the amount of extra average damage for a strength build over a luck build.
Code:
Ele modifier           Extra damage
1.6 (strong II vs weak I)   582
1 (neutral ele)             198
0.4 (weak I vs strong II)   -41
The higher the ele modifier the bigger the advantage for the strength build. But it's still not huge.

The other thing Xybolt mentioned was critical evasion.
Code:
Your luck     Opponent's luck      Your crit chance    Opponent's crit chance
 875               450                    95%                  46%
1495               450                    95%                  15%
 875               600                    95%                  76%
1495               600                    95%                  45%
 875               750                    95%                  95%
1495               750                    95%                  75%
 875               850                    95%                  95%
1495               850                    95%                  95%
As you can see, if your opponent only has 450 luck then they would crit 46% of the time with the strength build, but only 15% of the time with the luck build.
They would need to have 695 luck to hit the 95% crit rate with the strength build.
But 850 luck to hit the 95% crit rate with the luck build.

Whether or not you want to factor in critical evasion into your build is a personal preference.

RIP Kizzd

JamesGodden

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PostedJun 21, 2011 7:41 pm
Crit evasion in 1-70 PvP is a kinda moot point due to the affect of the Priest buff Etains Bless.

xybolt

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PostedJun 22, 2011 1:38 am
JamesGodden wrote:
Crit evasion in 1-70 PvP is a kinda moot point due to the affect of the Priest buff Etains Bless.  


yes, true, that's why i don't see a reason to push up your luc above 1k.
buffs like etain bless is important in end lvl PvP

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Rekikyo

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PostedJun 29, 2011 1:32 am
Xy you didn't really bring ele II into the conversation. Ele II only affects the attack power, and a luc build has much lower actual attack power than a Str build.

You'll find with ele II your argument about a str build being weak, go out the door.

Say I have 3k attack 850 luc
Weak Ele Ele II to Ele II:
((( 3000 * .5) - 340 (another hunter/rogue)) * 1.5) + 850(.75) = 2377 Damage to Weak Ele.

Strong EleII to EleII:

((( 3000 *1.4) - 340)*1.5) + 850(.75) = 6427 , 7065 Max 5790 Min.

Strong Ele II to Ele I (Mobs Scenario)

(((3000 *1.Cool - 100) *1.5) +850 (.75) = 8375

Also, keep in mind these are "averages." The Damage on the last equation can go up to 9225, a far cry from 8375. This is in all regards a STR Build example. Now, let's unravel what this can accomplish as a full luc attack power.

say my weapon has 1056 Attack Power. That means 1944 Attack is derived from stats. 850 Luc Generates 255 attack, so that leaves 1689 from Str and Dex. Let's assume I have 1500 Str. 189 Attack comes from dex (945 Dex)

of my 1500str, 11 have to stay str, and 700 str is base. Therefore I have a bonus of 800 Str. 689 Str is moveable to Luc.

The New build will be:

811 str, 945 dex, 771 + 768 Luc, or 1539 Luc

Attack Power will = 189 + 1056 + 811 + 461 = 2517 Attack Power.

Now, We're going to look at ranges.

Weak II vers II

((( 2517 * .5) -340) *1.5) + 1539(.75) = 2532 . In other words, versus the weak element, you did 115 More Damage on Average, with a max of 3226 and a min of 1577.

Strong Ele II Versus Ele II

((( 2517 *1.4) - 340) *1.5) + 1539(.75) = 4775 Min, 5929 Mean, And 7083 Max.

(Your Min is 1015 Lower than the full str build. Your Mean is 498 damage lower than your full str build, and Your Max is 18 Damage Higher than your Full Str Build. Your Luck build loses in both minimums and averages by drastic numbers in this instance, while gaining slightly on a max, on average losing 510 damage in comparison to the Str Build.)

Strong Ele II Vers Ele I (Mob Instance)

((( 2517 *1.Cool - 100) *1.5) + 1539(.75) = Minimum 6646, Mean 7800, Max 8955

(Your Minimum is 1304 Damage Lower than your Str build, your mean is 575 Lower than your full str build, and your Maximum is is 270 Lower than your Str Build. In this instance, Str Build wins in ALL categories for an average of 716 Damage Lower than your Str Build.)

Also, in your test, you only tested versus a neutral ele mob, which doesn't really tell you which build is better on elementals. I just did the work for you though ; on neutrals no there wont be much difference. But on Elemental Mobs there is a huge difference.

As to Xybolt's comment on a high defense pvper target: Just for fun we'll play with Maximums.

Weak Ele II Vs Ele II Armor

((( 3000 Attack * .5) - 2000 defense) * 1.5) + 850(1.5) = 1275 (lack of attack powr damage)

Strong Ele II vs Ele II Armor

((( 3000 Attack * 1.4) - 2000 defense) * 1.5) + 850 (1.5) = 4575 (2200 modified attack power overrides)

Strong Ele II Vs Ele I

((( 3000 Attack * 1.Cool - 2000 defense) * 1.5) +850 (1.5) = 6375 (3400 modified Attack runs over)

Luc Build:

((( 2517 * .5) - 2000) * 1.5) + 1539 (1.5) = 2308 (no attack power crosses over, and this is a max.

(((2517*1.4) - 2000) * 1.5) + 1539 (1.5) = 4593 (slightly higher than Str build, but also keep in mind 2308 of that can go from 0 - 2308, so you low hits will be 2285 compared to a much more stable str build damage around 3000 minimum.)

(((2517*1.Cool - 2000) *1.5) + 1539(1.5) = 3795 - 6103, which's max is 200 less than the str build's and alot more unstable with 3795 being the min damage.

In almost all cases in the game, when dealing with ele II, STR > LUC

magicalshorts

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PostedJun 29, 2011 10:36 am
Another way to break it down is to just look at what 1 point of str does versus 1 point of luc. One str adds 1 attack power. One luck adds .3 attack power, as well as an average of .75 damage. The difference between one point in each category turns out to be .7 attack with str versus a direct .75 damage with luck.

The .7 attack from str is a number subject to defense, while the luc number is always a direct .75 damage. So basically, in any case where .7 attack power translates to more than .75 damage, a str build will be better.

On targets with little or no defense, it's very easy to see a str build will do better. The only time this isn't true is with the weak element. Then that .7 attack gets halved to .35, and after the crit bonus of 1.5, the .7 attack translates to around .53 damage. An average .75 damage from 1 point of luck is clearly better.



When you start talking about high defense targets, calculating the differences of the builds gets a bit more tricky. Say you are a new 70 UM hunter. You've got 630 base points from leveling that you can put wherever you like, and all other stats are set by your gear and weapon.

So to see which build has better damage, you have to look at which parts of a full str and full luc build are different. Say you get 2.4k attack going full luck. If you restat and put your base 630 stats into str, you gain .7*630, or 441 more attack power. An extra 630 luck will give an average of 472.5 damage.

The 2.4k attack will be there regardless of if you go full str or full luc. That number already takes into account all your gear. The only difference between a str or luc build is an extra 441 attack versus 472.5 average damage.

This 2.4k attack is relevant because if 2.4k attack can hit through someone's defense, then every single bit of the 441 attack you would gain from going full str will add damage to your target. Say you hit with a neutral element. That 441 attack becomes about 661 damage. If you had been full luck, you would still only see an average of 472.5 damage.



When 2.4k attack cannot hit through someone's defense, then the 441 attack gained from going full str will be party wasted trying to overcome someone's defense. Say you hit someone on a neutral element and they have 2.6k defense while on a full str build. This means 200 of the 441 attack power gained will be wasted overcoming a person's defense. Then only 241 attack power will translate to damage, and you're looking at around 361 extra damage compared to 472 average on a luc build.

When you start looking at absorption things get a little more funky because of how luck damage varies, but in essence the ideas stay the same. Unless you are dealing with a target that has enough defense to cancel out the minimum attack power you'd have with a full luck build, a str build will add more average damage.

Rekikyo

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PostedJul 01, 2011 8:34 am
magicalshorts wrote:
Another way to break it down is to just look at what 1 point of str does versus 1 point of luc. One str adds 1 attack power. One luck adds .3 attack power, as well as an average of .75 damage. The difference between one point in each category turns out to be .7 attack with str versus a direct .75 damage with luck.

The .7 attack from str is a number subject to defense, while the luc number is always a direct .75 damage. So basically, in any case where .7 attack power translates to more than .75 damage, a str build will be better.

On targets with little or no defense, it's very easy to see a str build will do better. The only time this isn't true is with the weak element. Then that .7 attack gets halved to .35, and after the crit bonus of 1.5, the .7 attack translates to around .53 damage. An average .75 damage from 1 point of luck is clearly better.



When you start talking about high defense targets, calculating the differences of the builds gets a bit more tricky. Say you are a new 70 UM hunter. You've got 630 base points from leveling that you can put wherever you like, and all other stats are set by your gear and weapon.

So to see which build has better damage, you have to look at which parts of a full str and full luc build are different. Say you get 2.4k attack going full luck. If you restat and put your base 630 stats into str, you gain .7*630, or 441 more attack power. An extra 630 luck will give an average of 472.5 damage.

The 2.4k attack will be there regardless of if you go full str or full luc. That number already takes into account all your gear. The only difference between a str or luc build is an extra 441 attack versus 472.5 average damage.

This 2.4k attack is relevant because if 2.4k attack can hit through someone's defense, then every single bit of the 441 attack you would gain from going full str will add damage to your target. Say you hit with a neutral element. That 441 attack becomes about 661 damage. If you had been full luck, you would still only see an average of 472.5 damage.



When 2.4k attack cannot hit through someone's defense, then the 441 attack gained from going full str will be party wasted trying to overcome someone's defense. Say you hit someone on a neutral element and they have 2.6k defense while on a full str build. This means 200 of the 441 attack power gained will be wasted overcoming a person's defense. Then only 241 attack power will translate to damage, and you're looking at around 361 extra damage compared to 472 average on a luc build.

When you start looking at absorption things get a little more funky because of how luck damage varies, but in essence the ideas stay the same. Unless you are dealing with a target that has enough defense to cancel out the minimum attack power you'd have with a full luck build, a str build will add more average damage.  



Your argument entirely excludes ele II versus ele I versus neutral. Also, you don't really learn the true potential of damage on luc by going by a .75 average - you need to weigh the extremes; There's also a value in volatility versus stability. The Max Damage for both builds will taper into close to the same output on ele I, while the Minimum for Luc is Much lower, Meaning Str will always add more average damage in a positive situation.

On Ele II, the damage for Str at the max range even surpasses luc. However, you're not going to notice that if you rely on averages.

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