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Fraydren

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PostedNov 26, 2013 6:56 am

PVP zone bosses.

Now I am a noob and wont pretend to be otherwise. But how the bosses in world pvp maps work now only 6 people to get rewarded for the fight (me i just like the pvp). Not really the best systems if you ask me, so I would propose a change.

Why not change it so the world boss adds a faction buff that increase the chance of item drops in dungeons for all player of that faction for 6 hours stacking with all bosses from each zone. This would increase the pvp in each zone so unlike most game's content is solely base on max level. this game would be across the board for all players.

At this time the system we have now only rewards the 6 players on the most damage party, and still course's problems with in faction drama that both factions have felt at some point, with cry's of "why should I fight so %^$%£ gets the loot."

Now anyone is free to shoot this idea down in a ball of flames but would like a reason why I might be a bad idea.
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Pienene13

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PostedNov 26, 2013 12:52 pm
Or just change the loot drop not to highest DPS party but to ground drops -shrug- then Anyone can pick it up.

But just like all other previous suggestions people make, they won't change a thing :/

Retirement calls. Good bye :)

AmyLadybug

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PostedNov 26, 2013 1:37 pm
this problem actually extends to all bosses/events. They like to do these monster spawns in the lowbie area but again only the top dps groups get any of the main loot, which in just about every case are high level players.

The draw for non-guilded un-allied players to engage the pvp bosses is very low. That said, the draw even for the majority of the "top-dps" group is still quite low. It's almost a necessity to form alliances in order to form a large enough group to coordinate a boss kill. Because of that the loot gets divided so thinly that most players dont see much of the loot for themselves. The guild grows from the higher drops, but individually there really isn't much progression.

I've been in the main group many times, and I've leveled and geared my toon on my own with very minimal assistance from boss loot. The profits for the most part go towards gearing lower-geared players in the guilds.

It's a double edged sword really. You need a strong core group to even attempt a full on war. But why should anyone else help if they wont see any drops? Why should a random player that contributed very little be given the very rarely seen good drops? What insentive would there be to coordinate and gear-up if the drops would be completely random anyway?

The misconception is that 1 group gets all the loot and is being selfish and greedy. The truth in the matter is that the core group that normally get's that loot keeps almost none of it for themselves. Those players for the most part geared up on their own dime to bring power to the war. Then the loot is sold off to help those that cant afford to gear themselves.

I've spent more time in this game raising gold on my own from buying and selling on the auction house, ap item selling, and waiting on the occasional rare drop for me to sell for a few dozen gold. I'd rather be playing the game or pvp'ing, but I cant do that because I feel the responsibility to better my toon so that I can help in the war, only to have the profits distributed to those that cant/wont raise gold on their own.

I spend on average at least 50g per boss spawn in consumables, and that's without confrontation from the opposing faction. I keep none of the loot to myself. If every player would be willing to regularly lose gold for the fun of the game, then we'd have far more engaging battles. Instead both sides end up with people complaining about loot distribution fairness and guild rivalries. As a un-guilded/solo player, of course I'd love to have a unique drop in my name. As part of a very large alliance... the loot is pretty much paper thin. I go because of the content, not the loot.

Apollinarius

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PostedNov 26, 2013 1:56 pm
AmyLadybug wrote:
this problem actually extends to all bosses/events. They like to do these monster spawns in the lowbie area but again only the top dps groups get any of the main loot, which in just about every case are high level players.

The draw for non-guilded un-allied players to engage the pvp bosses is very low. That said, the draw even for the majority of the "top-dps" group is still quite low. It's almost a necessity to form alliances in order to form a large enough group to coordinate a boss kill. Because of that the loot gets divided so thinly that most players dont see much of the loot for themselves. The guild grows from the higher drops, but individually there really isn't much progression.

I've been in the main group many times, and I've leveled and geared my toon on my own with very minimal assistance from boss loot. The profits for the most part go towards gearing lower-geared players in the guilds.

It's a double edged sword really. You need a strong core group to even attempt a full on war. But why should anyone else help if they wont see any drops? Why should a random player that contributed very little be given the very rarely seen good drops? What insentive would there be to coordinate and gear-up if the drops would be completely random anyway?

The misconception is that 1 group gets all the loot and is being selfish and greedy. The truth in the matter is that the core group that normally get's that loot keeps almost none of it for themselves. Those players for the most part geared up on their own dime to bring power to the war. Then the loot is sold off to help those that cant afford to gear themselves.

I've spent more time in this game raising gold on my own from buying and selling on the auction house, ap item selling, and waiting on the occasional rare drop for me to sell for a few dozen gold. I'd rather be playing the game or pvp'ing, but I cant do that because I feel the responsibility to better my toon so that I can help in the war, only to have the profits distributed to those that cant/wont raise gold on their own.

I spend on average at least 50g per boss spawn in consumables, and that's without confrontation from the opposing faction. I keep none of the loot to myself. If every player would be willing to regularly lose gold for the fun of the game, then we'd have far more engaging battles. Instead both sides end up with people complaining about loot distribution fairness and guild rivalries. As a un-guilded/solo player, of course I'd love to have a unique drop in my name. As part of a very large alliance... the loot is pretty much paper thin. I go because of the content, not the loot.  

I don't see how playing for content can mix with the whole level up and gear up system RPGs.

If we were talking about Counterstrike or another game like that, you could say you play for the content. Everyone starts at zero, you play for an hour, become the best you can, and winners are decided.

But if you have to work for something for months or years, then the progression you work towards is at least as important as the content you experience while getting there. People want to see the drops because, while it would be a fun game for everyone to play as fully geared characters and no loot dropping at all because we don't need it, that isn't what we're playing. We're playing a game where only the items matter. I played for several months trying to ignore the gear system completely, spending resources only on basic gear and as many different nice outfits as I could. But even that gets boring eventually. As soon as I scratched the surface of competitive playing, I stopped bothering. It's not a game. It's not even a job. It's extortion. You have to pay money in the hope that you'll have a less crappy experience a bit further down the road.

No thanks.

And to the OP, yes, it's a strange system. The goal of the system is to create competition for the bosses. The factions fight each other first. Once one faction has won, then the groups try to beat each other for the prize. The sad reality is that the system is actually really good, but it can't function properly in SB.

In a better game with the same system, if one group hogged all the loot, the others would leave them to the opposing faction. Also, the bosses would be much tougher, so while it is a DPS race, if it was left to one group, they would be guaranteed to wipe on the boss alone.

Ideally, the bosses would be designed in such a way that the winning group would have to pay for help from all attending players or they'd never have gotten the boss kill in the first place. The game also needs a system where the boss despawns (no loot drops) if it is ever reset. That way people have to beat the boss continuously, not harass it back and forth.

Ultimately, bosses in SB are way too easy. They are designed for players who wouldn't be able to PVE their way out of a paper bag. As a result, the boss is little more than a trophy with a DPS meter attached. If they were anything like hardmode WoW bosses, you'd see actual competition for them because even the top guild would be nothing to the boss unless they got very coordinated help from the whole faction. In my opinion, it's much better for the game that the boss is so hard that nobody gets it, and it despawns, forcing people to come back four hours later to try again, than for it to go to an undeserving group. And by undeserving, I mean a group that doesn't have 100% of the faction support behind them.

My suggestion for you, if you enjoy SB pvp, is to do group dungeons and get geared in good rares. They're practically free on Consignment anyway. Enhance them up to +6 with the free gems you get all over the place. Spend the extra money you have on a decent +7 or +8 bike. Limit your playing to Janus/Turnpike and completing daily quests in PvP zones. That amount of playing will be fun, but won't frustrate you when someone comes around the corner and hits you for 20k damage even though they're using the same weapon as you, just with 10k gold strapped to it in the form of enhancement.

AmyLadybug

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PostedNov 26, 2013 3:38 pm
That's a very PVE take on the subject.

As far as I care, the PVP bosses are only there to pull players from both sides to a common location. That is the content worth playing if any.

The system in place at the moment pretty much negates all of the loot, since like i said it gets spread so thin it barely matters. Many of us could care less that there was a huge monster annoyingly getting in the way. Everything in and on the PVP maps is only there to draw people into pvp situations.

Of course this game is not in the leagues of other PVE focused raid dungeon games. But the PVP element is pretty much the same where ever you go, it's people against people. Comparing it to C'Thun or Akylios pre-nerf from other notable games is very apples to watermelons.

Apollinarius

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PostedNov 26, 2013 3:57 pm
AmyLadybug wrote:
That's a very PVE take on the subject.

As far as I care, the PVP bosses are only there to pull players from both sides to a common location. That is the content worth playing if any.

The system in place at the moment pretty much negates all of the loot, since like i said it gets spread so thin it barely matters. Many of us could care less that there was a huge monster annoyingly getting in the way. Everything in and on the PVP maps is only there to draw people into pvp situations.

Of course this game is not in the leagues of other PVE focused raid dungeon games. But the PVP element is pretty much the same where ever you go, it's people against people. Comparing it to C'Thun or Akylios pre-nerf from other notable games is very apples to watermelons.  

The problem I have with that approach is that the PVP is limited to only between factions, while in reality, the groups contesting the boss would also like to kill each other.

The competition between groups is enforced by the loot system, but it is not possible to fight and kill those who are competing with you for the items. That's where the "this is PVP" falls down. If it were a free for all, and whoever gets the last hit gets the loot, then I'd say the objective is to create a PVP engagement. As it is now, one faction shows up in numbers, the other stays in base while getting spawn camped, and one guild or group of guilds get the items.

You don't get rich in the game by not having drops. You can say that the stuff is being given out to poorly geared players now because the well geared players have all the items. But how did they get to have a full set of +10 uniques in the first place? Certainly it was because they got unique drops and because they were able to sell the excess drops for items that allowed them to enhance.

The only other possibility is that everyone with good gear has bought the enhancement items with AP so they didn't need in-game gold to enhance. That's certainly not the case for many of the best geared players because AP prices of enhancement items were ridiculously high for a long time.

Every unique that is in someone's possession came off of one of those bosses. Someone looted it and sold it or put it on. The person looting it got an advantage over those who were present and not able to loot.

As far as the PVE take vs PVP take goes, I feel that without a real PVE element, a game with loot can't have PVP. You have what SB calls PVP, but it's mostly a better geared player slaughtering handfuls of poorly geared players. In most other games, being better geared means that you can win a 1v1. You'd always lose a 2v1 and most certainly you wouldn't be able to walk into a base with 20 players, kill them all, clear the guards, hop outside, and keep slaughtering everyone who comes through the gates until you get bored. Since the bosses aren't challenging, they're free loot for someone. And that someone is going to have a truly incredible advantage over everyone else. Tell me, how many people in +6/+7 rares can a full unique +10 sentinel with a unique mech kill? Last video I saw was 35. The video ended and the sentinel was still alive. That's not PVP. That's gloating because you got loot that others didn't, and there is no other way to present that.

You spend 50 gold in consumables to get two uniques from a boss, each worth 30-40k gold. I'd like a chance for investments like that in real life Very Happy

At worst you're sharing 60k worth of gold between six people, who paid a combined 300 gold. That's a 200 times return. 20,000% return on a boss fight.

The funniest thing is that you come off as resentful that you help out on the bosses but never get anything from them because nobody lets you get the loot. So, have you ever gotten a boss drop? I've been playing for over 4 months and have never gotten a single item from a world boss, both PVP and PVE. It's fun gearing up when you never get a chance to loot anything.

Raidbreakszz

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PostedNov 26, 2013 4:49 pm
I disagree. When has there even been a case where drops are shared bwtween 6 peoe for world bosses except at a random titan or two? Mostly its guilds working with other guilds to secure the drop for their alliance.

Ill list some of the main points with the RG and Free Knights alliance

RG alliance
Assigns bosses to specific guild
All loot belong to that guild
Every other guild helps defend


Free Knights aliance
Highest dps guild takes the boss
The loot is rolled for later, taking turns on the rotation
Every other guild helps defend

Both alliances have pros and cons. My opinion is Free Knights alliance has a slightly better incentive to draw people as long as no guilds gets backstabbed. But its also more open to causing drama between the guilds

Of course by some miracle, there is a group that can outdps the alliances' dps, chances are the boss will be rest/left to wipe. So pvp bosses are really only for those people in the alliances. In short, if your not in the alliance,, dont expect to be rewarded loot for participating. However there are some other benefits to your faction controlling the zone like easier dailes/grinding etc

AmyLadybug

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PostedNov 26, 2013 9:22 pm
"At worst you're sharing 60k worth of gold between six people, who paid a combined 300 gold. That's a 200 times return. 20,000% return on a boss fight."

Still you've missed the point of everything I've been saying. At the best "worst" case scenario with a unique dropping, that item is sold off between 8-25k. That gold is then split many times over to gear up lesser geared members. With alliances, that drop would be handed off to a whole other guild no matter who's hands it drops into. Then take into account that the opposing faction is also trying to get in on that action. It' common to go a week or two with no drop going to any one guild that is actually part of an alliance.

With a large battle multiple guilds come together to try and secure a win. Multiple 6-man teams playing their own role. At off-peak spawns with very little attendance, it's still common to have at least 2 groups. And even with low attendance, the loot is STILL divided/redistributed among a very large co-op.

"The funniest thing is that you come off as resentful that you help out on the bosses but never get anything from them because nobody lets you get the loot. So, have you ever gotten a boss drop? I've been playing for over 4 months and have never gotten a single item from a world boss, both PVP and PVE. It's fun gearing up when you never get a chance to loot anything."

I've once got credit for a unique. Still doesn't mean it's mine. Even the gems and shards go to the guild. I think you misunderstand what resentful is. I show up for the benefit of the many, where as you believe that the contribution of a single rambo player should have the same rights at reward as the large co-op that made taking the boss down possible.

As I've said before, I've geared up on my own dime and time. And most of the "core" groups are in the same boat. In many cases the main dps group is poorer than the average player since they spent every coin they had in the game making their gear better so that the group at large could benefit from their work. Of course there are a few players that are quite wealthy, but as far as my guild is concerned, that wealth is from sources outside of the boss loot.

In short; If you didnt come for RP, then it's not worth your time. That goes for people in that main 6-man group too.

Fraydren

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PostedNov 27, 2013 9:32 am
Now the point I was making was not the loot really but a bonus to all faction members. As yes a lot of the players that defend these bosses are not in main guilds but littleones so do not benefit from the trickle down system with in most guilds . Now yes you could say its their fault or what ever but what I said in my first post was a bonus buff type thing that all faction members get for 6 hours to drop rate so even the ones not in the "main" dps party gets loot in away.
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