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PurpleMousie

Rank 1
PurpleMousie
Joined
06 Dec 2011
Posts
334
Location
Under the bed United Kingdom
PostedApr 16, 2013 9:58 pm
You still haven't got it have you?

YOU ARE NOT GAMBLING ON THE OUTCOME OF THE WHEEL IT IS FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY.

You are playing against a RNG not an actual wheel.

It is the same with the mboxes. They list the possible prizes, you click purchase, the program runs and the prize is delivered. The difference being that in the Loot Wheel there is a graphic to keep your attention for a few seconds while in the boxes it is left out.

If there are ten prizes listed that does not equate to a 1 in 10 chance to win the jackpot does it now?

Nowhere does it list the chances of winning the prizes.
The wheel is not to be taken as a mathematical representation of the odds.

It is you who makes the connection between what you presume to be the chances of winning and reality.

If you fail to understand this... Confused

teamvortex wrote:
By your logic if you are playing lottery and it says to pick 6 numbers from 1 to 52 and a 53 comes up during the drawling thats ok cause it was YOUR "mind" that assumed there would be no number 53.  
53 would be outside the possible list of prizes and would be an error and support your case of it being bent. Saying as this has not happened and is rather unlikely to I did not bother to respond to earlier as it has no bearing in this discussion.

teamvortex wrote:
Gambling is ALL about playing the odds...etc, etc  
Just because you fail to correctly grasp the odds or your impressions and expectations of how it works this does not suddenly make it not gambling lol.
I don't know the odds of being hit by a bus doesn't mean I'm not gambling when I cross the road. Here is a helpful link to adjust your skewed perspective note the lack of needing to know the odds to participate. Clicky



In conclusion how can the Loot Wheel be rigged when it is not in fact what you are gambling on but just some pretty graphics.

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Kougen

Legendary Founder: Scarlet Blade
Kougen
Joined
16 Mar 2010
Posts
103
Location
United States
PostedApr 16, 2013 10:19 pm
A few thoughts from the person who literally wrote the guide on how to play the Item Mall (see sig).

My personal experience with the loot wheel on Imagine was much better than this, but given the way that everything else in the mall has been going for this game, somehow I'm not surprised if the odds of getting the worst two prizes are >90%. No, the visual use of a wheel does not have any bearing on the actual odds. It is a novelty.

By teamvortex's definition, yes the loot wheel is rigged. However, it is more accurate to say that Aeria is simply being deceptive about your odds of winning. You created your own idea of what the odds were based on what was at best a misleading representation and actually not representative of anything. The outcome of your spin is determined before the animation even begins, and the "slices" of the wheel are nothing more than a place for the names of the prizes to be written.

The last thing I will say is that small sample sizes (like 10) usually aren't very good for actually determining anything statistically. Your post should definitely be taken as a strong warning for anyone who might have been planning to try the loot wheel themselves, but we're really no closer now to knowing what the odds are than before other than "bad".

<a>Item Mall Guide</a></br>[Venus] Royal Guards: Because someone has to be the good guys

chronos_notashi

Rank 3
chronos_notashi
Joined
14 Apr 2011
Posts
907
Location
United States
PostedApr 16, 2013 10:27 pm
I'm surprised that the GMs haven't already locked this thread yet. There's so much flaming, baiting, and various flawgic that I'm surprised it even lasted at least THREE pages.

Let's be honest here, teamvortex: I've seen so many flaws in your logic, I don't think I can point them all out, nor do I wish to, considering how this discussion is already a BLAZING INFERNO OF POINTLESS FLAMING! All I have to say is that, for one, you're the minority, and you're trying to convince the MAJORITY that your way of thought is right, and that everyone else is wrong in SOME way. There have been examples given to you of why you're wrong, various counterpoints showing that you misjudged various times. PurpleMousie even went through the trouble of LINKING the definition of the word "gamble".

And yet what do you do? You pull the Card of Ignorance. You don't want to admit that you've been proven wrong, and keep trying to push the same, worn-out talk you're trying to spread around, except worded differently. And that example with the gun that you used? Yeah, you pretty much lost ALL of my support as soon as my eyes met that paragraph.

I won't say whether or not I agree with you on the loot wheel being rigged. What I WILL say is that the next time you complain about something being rigged, I'll remember this thread and take what all has transpired here into account, and judge your approaches accordingly.

Have a good day, and I hope you have better luck next time.

Edit: Okay, maybe it's not THAT much of a majority, considering it's a few, but you're still taking this discussion a LITTLE too far, and I suggest that EVERYONE here take some time to cool down, think through what they're trying to state, THEN come back and try this again in a more civilized and mature manner, assuming the thread isn't locked by then.

teamvortex

Rank 0
Joined
26 Apr 2007
Posts
21
PostedApr 17, 2013 1:06 am
chronos_notashi wrote:
I'm surprised that the GMs haven't already locked this thread yet. There's so much flaming, baiting, and various flawgic that I'm surprised it even lasted at least THREE pages.

Let's be honest here, teamvortex: I've seen so many flaws in your logic, I don't think I can point them all out, nor do I wish to, considering how this discussion is already a BLAZING INFERNO OF POINTLESS FLAMING! All I have to say is that, for one, you're the minority, and you're trying to convince the MAJORITY that your way of thought is right, and that everyone else is wrong in SOME way. There have been examples given to you of why you're wrong, various counterpoints showing that you misjudged various times. PurpleMousie even went through the trouble of LINKING the definition of the word "gamble".

And yet what do you do? You pull the Card of Ignorance. You don't want to admit that you've been proven wrong, and keep trying to push the same, worn-out talk you're trying to spread around, except worded differently. And that example with the gun that you used? Yeah, you pretty much lost ALL of my support as soon as my eyes met that paragraph.

I won't say whether or not I agree with you on the loot wheel being rigged. What I WILL say is that the next time you complain about something being rigged, I'll remember this thread and take what all has transpired here into account, and judge your approaches accordingly.

Have a good day, and I hope you have better luck next time.

Edit: Okay, maybe it's not THAT much of a majority, considering it's a few, but you're still taking this discussion a LITTLE too far, and I suggest that EVERYONE here take some time to cool down, think through what they're trying to state, THEN come back and try this again in a more civilized and mature manner, assuming the thread isn't locked by then.  


Just like everyone else on these forums you call my ignorant say my logic is flawed but even in your own paragraph that you call me these things you refuse to address why. The only thing I have used in my statements is facts and analogies to better detail what it is I feel about the loot wheel.

I do not understand how saying I think the whole idea of the wheel is misleading is playing the ignorant card cause thats really the only thing I can think that you would possibly be talking about. As a matter a fact when I go back and read most of what I said and then others I feel I made very well constructed valid points and others... well didn't. As a matter a fact more over it seems like its just insults with no real reason to why the insult was fired at the first place.

I mean if you are going to call me ignorant and call my logic flawed but not even give reasons you might as well start calling me fat, or ugly cause thats about the mentality of your attacks against me.

Please someone that says my logic is flawed or that I am being ignorant point that out to me... where is the ignorance and or flawed logic in thinking that something which does not have listed odds of winning and uses a fake wheel as representation of your chance to win with (what anyone can see) blatantly displays higher amounts of low odd winning prizes on the wheel giving the deception that you have a higher chance of winning them is nothing more then a rigged system designed to fool the customer into taking a chance on something where your odds are already (BUT NOT STATED) very low of winning and predetermined.

PLEASE point out the flaw in that logic and the ignorance I have in using such. Cause I am really confused as to what it is that is flawed or ignorant about that thinking.

P.S Just for the record I am really only addressing those that felt a need to go to insults rather then hold a healthy debate about a topic I feel is important. Thank you to those that offered your ideas on the topic. I may disagree with some of you on what you said. I do understand your main point which I see as "duh, of course" but to me that is no cause for allowing it to happen with out putting up a stink.

The whole idea that they waste this amount of time on these little cash shop games and plan more constructive ways to deceive the customer out of their money instead of working on the one game we all came here to play really shows me a lot about this company. I mean when I get more adds for their specials in cash shop shoved down my throat then their cheap *** excuse for a PvP queue I start to wonder... what is it all for. The game or the money I spend on the game.

Alastoreo

Rank 5
Alastoreo
Joined
13 Dec 2010
Posts
3477
Location
Singapore
PostedApr 17, 2013 2:15 am
 
YOU ARE NOT GAMBLING ON THE OUTCOME OF THE WHEEL IT IS FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY.  


 
Nowhere does it list the chances of winning the prizes.
The wheel is not to be taken as a mathematical representation of the odds.
 


In case you missed mousie's explanation. You based your whole argument based on the assumption on that and everyone has pointed out that is a mistake.
Personally loot forge pays off better than loot wheels in AGE games, just control yourself and make sure to take the payout once the prize is useful and more than the AP invested.

Take it as a lesson in AGE crappy sales tactics and move on.

BAM BAM my gingerbread went BOOMZ!

chronos_notashi

Rank 3
chronos_notashi
Joined
14 Apr 2011
Posts
907
Location
United States
PostedApr 17, 2013 4:02 am
Alastoreo wrote:
 
YOU ARE NOT GAMBLING ON THE OUTCOME OF THE WHEEL IT IS FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY.  


 
Nowhere does it list the chances of winning the prizes.
The wheel is not to be taken as a mathematical representation of the odds.
 


In case you missed mousie's explanation. You based your whole argument based on the assumption on that and everyone has pointed out that is a mistake.
Personally loot forge pays off better than loot wheels in AGE games, just control yourself and make sure to take the payout once the prize is useful and more than the AP invested.

Take it as a lesson in AGE crappy sales tactics and move on.  


^ This. What I'm TRYING to tell you is that according to your logic, since the odds of getting something for the loot wheel aren't as equal as shown on the wheel, it's automatically rigged. Better throw slot machines into that mix, because more often than not, you get nothing when you place a bet, and if you do, it's low. Add lotteries in as well, considering that the chances of getting the jackpot are intentionally low for THOSE, too.

The problem with your logic is that your stating that ALL odds should be completely known at all times, and if the odds are unknown to the one taking the gamble, then it's automatically unfair and rigged. This simply isn't true, and you're trying to fight against a game of chance using only what you know at face value. Sure, if the odds aren't visible, you might not be as likely to determine the proper odds of getting a jackpot, but does that mean it's rigged to NEVER give you a jackpot? No. It just means that you'll have a VERY hard time getting it, but not necessarily "rigged" (as jackpots are naturally given VERY low chances, as they can be extremely valuable/build up with consecutive plays).

As for not saying why I called flawgic, I COULD'VE explained why, but 1) I would have to summarize everything you said into one sentence, which Alastoreo has already done in his post, 2) others have tried to point out why, but in the end you dismissed and IGNORED their reasoning and continued as if their views were always wrong, and 3) I didn't want to, because as I said, this thread is already a BLAZING INFERNO OF POINTLESS FLAMING! In fact, anything else that's said in this thread will just be adding fuel to the fire.

But alas, even through all this, I must state ONE fact: the loot wheel is ran by a random-number generator (RNG) system instead of an actual wheel system. The wheel is just there for looks, and like ALL RNG systems like this one, it's been programmed so that every number in it (however many that may be) is assigned different items. This means that the jackpot might be sitting pretty within only ONE of those numbers, while the rest of the numbers are distributed among the remaining prizes, based on value/rarity, with more valuable prizes having less numbers assigned, and less valuable prizes having more numbers. Then, once you choose to use the "wheel", the program chooses a number AT RANDOM among those used, with numbers outside of the range being exempt and ignored, then executes the proper action depending on what's chosen: all of this done within a matter of seconds.

Many game companies have used this for luck-based items to give random chances at rare, valuable prizes, whether for free or by online currency. Loot Boxes, lucky boxes, loot wheel, loot forge, random chance items: you name something computer-programmed that gives random items within a set, there's an RNG programmed right inside it.

So next time you're confronted with a game company's random chance system that LOOKS like it has equal chances, always remember that there's an RNG that decides if it's equal or not depending on the prizes, and not what you yourself think.

tl:dr? It's not rigged, as your logic is trying to state. The prizes ARE given equal chances, but in the sense that the equality is based on the value and rarity of the prizes in question. An exception would be if every prize had the same odds as another, regardless of value, but this is VERY rare among game companies, and usually only done with items of equal value.

Alastoreo

Rank 5
Alastoreo
Joined
13 Dec 2010
Posts
3477
Location
Singapore
PostedApr 17, 2013 5:56 am
Psst just want to add, I was against his reason for saying the loot wheel is rigged, not saying it isn't.

Most of these 'jackpot' type of games have a certain break-even point. I highly doubt AGE don't have one too.

BAM BAM my gingerbread went BOOMZ!

OSUBeaver

GameSage: Forum
OSUBeaver
Joined
06 Nov 2007
Posts
10292
PostedApr 17, 2013 7:56 am
I debated locking, but decided to move to R&R instead. If people don't stay on topic and instead resort to insulting the posters themselves, then locked it will become.

Just plain Beaver now.

Panderp.

Rank 4
Panderp.
Joined
27 Apr 2012
Posts
2790
Location
The Moon Brazil
PostedApr 17, 2013 11:09 am
OP: welcome to Aeria. Even though your account was made in 2007, it seems you haven't experienced how things work here.

lingu023

Rank 2
lingu023
Joined
01 Nov 2012
Posts
574
Location
Sweden
PostedMay 01, 2013 5:54 am
Alastoreo wrote:
 
YOU ARE NOT GAMBLING ON THE OUTCOME OF THE WHEEL IT IS FOR DISPLAY PURPOSES ONLY.  


 
Nowhere does it list the chances of winning the prizes.
The wheel is not to be taken as a mathematical representation of the odds.
 


In case you missed mousie's explanation. You based your whole argument based on the assumption on that and everyone has pointed out that is a mistake.
Personally loot forge pays off better than loot wheels in AGE games, just control yourself and make sure to take the payout once the prize is useful and more than the AP invested.

Take it as a lesson in AGE crappy sales tactics and move on.  


The information available is the graphical display. When it doesn't match, it is a scam / rigging / unacceptable mistake.

Let's say you are at a TV show and you get to choose 1 of 3 doors. The results may be "nothing", a car or money. So you pick one door, and it is empty. Unlucky? Nah, the TV show actually have all doors empty, and if they feel like you should be winning they'll make someone walk in behind the door and place the prize there before opening.

Would that be rigged? No, they never claimed the prizes were behind the doors when selected, only when opened! And it is the competitors fault if they didn't catch that is how it works behind the scenes.

See how this relates to the thread at hand? You can't claim that appearances don't matter, but that everyone should already know they give you less chance to win than what it looks like.

It says quite a lot about the costume service at Aeria when they do not even bother to spend 5 minutes posting that they are sorry that it wasn't more clear, and that they will be correcting it for future users.
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