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JamesGodden

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JamesGodden
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PostedFeb 05, 2013 3:46 am
LoDebar wrote:
The fundamental problem with this question is that comparing two archers that have a 1000 attack but one has 200 LUC and the other has 400 LUC, these two archers do not have the same number of total stat points, thus no real comparison can be made due to lack of information.

When you run the numbers, 1 point in STR yields more damage on average than 1 point in LUC even when critting.  


They could actually easily have identical stat pools. (just different weapons attack powers, OR different str/dex mixtures)

e.g. 600str/1700dex/200luc/0weapon base atk =1000 as does 575str/1525dex/400luc/0 weapon atk base attack again =1000, total stats on both = 2300,
OR 600str/700dex/200luc/200weapon base atk =1000 as does 575str/525dex/400luc/200 weapon atk base attack again =1000, total stats on both = 1500, which is more likely as weapons DO have base attack Very Happy

but ofc differing weapon attacks is more likely Smile

In the op's scenario the STR stat is completely irrelvant as he has quoted the attack power, which by its very nature for an archer/hunter is as per Pask's calculation, and inherently contains the "STR number + weapon atk + 1/5th of Dex + 3/10ths of LUC."

Essentially when quoting stats it is much better to state, Attack, Dex, Luc when referring to you attack attributes, than it is to quote Str, Dex, Luc, especially nowadays (I have more STR than "most" endgame archer/hunters (not all but most) yet I have far lower attack power (purely due to weapon base atk) and lower Dex usually

As a slight aside in end-game PvP (idk about other zones) STR is not even the paramount Stat contributing to Archer/Hunter Attack power anymore, Weapon attack power adds more

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Rekikyo

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PostedFeb 05, 2013 6:48 am
pask81 wrote:
The test was done by a GM of Shaiya IT.

Toon 1: war lv1 with axe lv1 linked fire ele1 or fire ele2
Toon 2: war lv5 with top earth lv1 and earth lv2

Each attack was repeated 3 times

1) Fire ele1 vs earth 1 : 39 - 38 - 35 dmg
2) Fire ele2 vs earth 1: 39 - 34 - 36 dmg

The results show no difference, but I was worried the attack was too low to show real effect, so he added 800 str to toon 1 and 800 rec to toon2 (GMs can do it Smile)

After this change toon1 had 1073 - 1081 attack and toon2 had 805 defense

3) Fire 1 vs earth 1: 276 - 271 - 270
4) Fire 2 vs earth 2: 271 - 271 - 273

It is evident that ele2 and ele1 vs neutral ele1 have same effect and it is 100% normal damage (considering attack and defense the normal damage is in the range 268-276)

After your reply I asked to repeat the test vs an earth 2 top, here are the results:

5) Fire 1 vs earth 2: 268 - 270 - 274
6) Fire 2 vs earth 2: 253 - 256 - 252

Apparently ele2 vs ele2 do less damage than ele1 vs ele2, same neutral elemnt Surprised

This makes no sense tbh, but I made him relog and test again to be sure bless and endurance was ok and the results were the same the 2nd time.  


As PC said, it is the wrong test.

The correct test, is:

Fire II weapon vs Earth I Armor
Fire II Weapon vs Earth II Armor

(you're adjusting the wrong variable). (I would also suggest testing with toons much higher than level 1/5; the lower the gear goes, the greater chance a 1% change in power is miscontrued; make a level 80 toon, naked, except for a weapon, and allot it no luc. And then do something similar for the defensive test target, except a top)


@ OP: The basic difference between two builds can be summed down to this:

AVG (200*1.5/2)*(200*.002) + attack vs AVG (400*1.5/2)*(400*.002) + attack

Although 200/400 are really low numbers in today's shaiya, what this represents is the probability of a critical multiplied by the variable damage assigned to the representing luck on a critical. In the case of 200 Luc, you crit 40%. So you do an average of 150 more damage 40% of the time. In the case of 400, you crit 80% of the time for an average of 300. Then you weight that damage vs its chance of occuring.

At high levels, luck is so high that it's generally accepted you will always have a 95% Crit rate, so you generally don't have to weigh the probability of a crit occuring to be close to the mark.

@ Arthur; I'm in college again, getting my Economics Bachelor this time. I'm also, like PC, disenchanted with how this game is operating, and have been toying with DKO.

pask81

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PostedFeb 05, 2013 8:12 am
Sorry I posted wrong description on test 4: test 3 and 4 were repetition of test 1 and 2 with increased attack and defense, but all with earth 1 as top, while test 5 and 6 were done with earth2 as top.

1) Fire ele1 vs earth 1 : 39 - 38 - 35 dmg
2) Fire ele2 vs earth 1: 39 - 34 - 36 dmg

3) Fire 1 vs earth 1: 276 - 271 - 270
4) Fire 2 vs earth 1: 271 - 271 - 273

5) Fire 1 vs earth 2: 268 - 270 - 274
6) Fire 2 vs earth 2: 253 - 256 - 252

All the test results were coherent and shows no difference between ele 1 and ele2... all but 6th one that shows ele2 vs ele2 are worse than ele1 vs ele2 (talking only about neutral elements). Anyway 6th test was repeated in another moment (as I said) to confirm this strange behavior and the results were the same.

The difference you want to see is between test 4 and test 6 that confirms that ele2 vs ele1 gives better damage than ele2 vs ele2... the crazy thing is that this is a consequence of a malus ele2 gets vs ele2 and not for a bonus ele2 gets vs ele1.

Killa_1112

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PostedFeb 05, 2013 10:03 am
I have figured you need a mix of both, luck WILL slightly increase your damage but 500 luck 500 str would give much more power to each crit. However those with more luck than you have a chance to negate the crit, this means your strength comes into play once again and adds to regular damage.

All in all don't rely on either, you need both.

- Courtesy of the Great Avyn

LoDebar

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PostedFeb 06, 2013 12:45 am
When comparing stats just look at the basic equation. Forget the weapon and buff and attacks. Just look at the stats, and compare stat verses stat

For archers in non critical hits

Bow
1 point in STR = 1 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.3 point in damage

Sword
1 point in STR = 1.3 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.3 point in damage.

So STR yields more damage

Now for archers with a critical hit
Bow
1 point in STR = 1.5 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.45 plus random 0 to 1.5 point in damage (average 1.2 point)

Sword
1 point in STR = 1.95 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.45 plus random 0 to 1.5 point in damage (average 1.2 point)

Again STR has the advantage

Now, if you had 400 LUC, your non critical damage will be 120, and 480 average for a critical hit

and you restatted that 400 LUC to 200 STR and 200 LUC, then your damage would be 360 for a non critical hit or 540 for a average critical damage

So now you are comparing apples to apples.
120 damage vs 360 damage in a non critical hit
or
480 damage vs 540 damage in critical hit.

Clearly STR yields more damage than LUC does.

But you need a balance of LUC, DEX, and STR. You need enough LUC to get the critical hits (if you hit your opponent). You need DEX to be able to hit your opponent, and you need STR to cause real damage to your opponent.

Also, when linking, there are limitations to which lapis you can and can not link. Thus there are some constraints to the overall distribution of the stat points.

Bottom line, STR yields more damage than LUC.

acac8484

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PostedFeb 06, 2013 1:15 am
LoDebar wrote:
When comparing stats just look at the basic equation. Forget the weapon and buff and attacks. Just look at the stats, and compare stat verses stat

For archers in non critical hits

Bow
1 point in STR = 1 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.3 point in damage

Sword
1 point in STR = 1.3 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.3 point in damage.

So STR yields more damage

Now for archers with a critical hit
Bow
1 point in STR = 1.5 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.45 plus random 0 to 1.5 point in damage (average 1.2 point)

Sword
1 point in STR = 1.95 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.45 plus random 0 to 1.5 point in damage (average 1.2 point)

Again STR has the advantage

Now, if you had 400 LUC, your non critical damage will be 120, and 480 average for a critical hit

and you restatted that 400 LUC to 200 STR and 200 LUC, then your damage would be 360 for a non critical hit or 540 for a average critical damage

So now you are comparing apples to apples.
120 damage vs 360 damage in a non critical hit
or
480 damage vs 540 damage in critical hit.

Clearly STR yields more damage than LUC does.

But you need a balance of LUC, DEX, and STR. You need enough LUC to get the critical hits (if you hit your opponent). You need DEX to be able to hit your opponent, and you need STR to cause real damage to your opponent.

Also, when linking, there are limitations to which lapis you can and can not link. Thus there are some constraints to the overall distribution of the stat points.

Bottom line, STR yields more damage than LUC.  


Its about 1-15 gear theory what to link if Craft 5 or Luck 6... as i see [ im perma on KO ] +30luck will do bit more DPS than +20str if perma crit.

4Raw.mecca

JamesGodden

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PostedFeb 06, 2013 1:20 am
LoDebar wrote:
When comparing stats just look at the basic equation. Forget the weapon and buff and attacks. Just look at the stats, and compare stat verses stat

For archers in non critical hits

Bow
1 point in STR = 1 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.3 point in damage

Sword
1 point in STR = 1.3 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.3 point in damage.

So STR yields more damage

Now for archers with a critical hit
Bow
1 point in STR = 1.5 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.45 plus random 0 to 1.5 point in damage (average 1.2 point)

Sword
1 point in STR = 1.95 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.45 plus random 0 to 1.5 point in damage (average 1.2 point)

Again STR has the advantage

Now, if you had 400 LUC, your non critical damage will be 120, and 480 average for a critical hit

and you restatted that 400 LUC to 200 STR and 200 LUC, then your damage would be 360 for a non critical hit or 540 for a average critical damage

So now you are comparing apples to apples.
120 damage vs 360 damage in a non critical hit
or
480 damage vs 540 damage in critical hit.

Clearly STR yields more damage than LUC does.

But you need a balance of LUC, DEX, and STR. You need enough LUC to get the critical hits (if you hit your opponent). You need DEX to be able to hit your opponent, and you need STR to cause real damage to your opponent.

Also, when linking, there are limitations to which lapis you can and can not link. Thus there are some constraints to the overall distribution of the stat points.

Bottom line, STR yields more damage than LUC.  


the basic equation is (atk-def)*1.5 + LUC*(RND[0-1.5)) the only base stat in the equation in that simple form is LUC, the STR is contained in Attack, along with attack from weapon/skill/luc and dex

Noone is saying it doesn't yield more damage, but it isn't relevant in the OP's question since he has stated the total attack, which includes the STR stat within it, so for his specific question the STR wasn't relevant.

and like I said weapon base attack is MORE important than STR to an archer/hunter now in end game, a [20]ed 79 x-bow/jav has over 4400 attack, the hunter I chat to requently in my guild has barely 1500 str, but it doesn't matter since he has so much attack from his weapon. Full dex hunters in equal gear to certain other classes have more attack than those classes on max STR builds, all because of the chances to weapons in end-game

MerlinMcTav

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PostedFeb 06, 2013 5:51 pm
acac8484 wrote:
Its about 1-15 gear theory what to link if Craft 5 or Luck 6... as i see [ im perma on KO ] +30luck will do bit more DPS than +20str if perma crit.  
For 1-15 you can't get enough luck to guarantee enough crits.
A strength build without KO nos will out-damage a luck build.
A strength build with KO nos will far outstrip a luck build.

Bottom line, go str/dex & no luck for 1-15. 20-30 you can get a functional luck build, but not 1-15.

RIP Kizzd

Killa_1112

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PostedFeb 07, 2013 7:12 am
MerlinMcTav wrote:
acac8484 wrote:
Its about 1-15 gear theory what to link if Craft 5 or Luck 6... as i see [ im perma on KO ] +30luck will do bit more DPS than +20str if perma crit.  
For 1-15 you can't get enough luck to guarantee enough crits.
A strength build without KO nos will out-damage a luck build.
A strength build with KO nos will far outstrip a luck build.

Bottom line, go str/dex & no luck for 1-15. 20-30 you can get a functional luck build, but not 1-15.  


back when gaia went relativly noss i tried the luck build in 1-15, it was not easy, crits were inconsistent, but they were also strong and having pooled everything into luck there was little to no defence so i dropped like a rock.

It is possible if these ubers wanted to do, but its also very very hard to get right in 1-15.

Personally i liked being a rec archer. Debuff from a distance mana draining orcs Smile its a good disruptor build.

- Courtesy of the Great Avyn

101tadakatsu101

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PostedFeb 07, 2013 9:23 am
LoDebar wrote:
Sword
1 point in STR = 1.95 point in damage
1 point in LUC = 0.45 plus random 0 to 1.5 point in damage (average 1.2 point)
 


might i just add that luc doesnt add anything to swords cause luck only adds to shooting attack power. so unless we get to throw swords and axes these days theres something wrong with your formula

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